The Residential Surveyor Is Dead. Long Live the Residential Surveyor. Part 2

Nina Young: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. I’m your host, Nina Young, and today is actually a different episode in the sense of it’s part two of a recording I did last week with Johnny Milner. And this is following on from it. We decided to split it into two parts so it was easier for people to listen to. So Johnny Milner is a chartered surveyor. He’s also a residential surveyor and valuer. He’s currently the technical manager at Legal and General Surveying Services. And we had a brilliant conversation last week. And there are still many more things to listen to on this episode. Some very interesting insights and thoughts from Johnny. So without further ado, let’s continue with part two of the episode.

Nina Young: 01:28
So this leads on to a juicy topic. So toxic culture this one was about. And I think you’re referring predominantly to residential surveying. That’s my assumption. And also, you know, why we needed Alan Patner. Now tell the listeners what this Alan Patner is. I have some sort of understanding of it, the things I’ve come across on LinkedIn. Alan Patner is on LinkedIn. But please explain sort of to people that maybe haven’t heard of him who is this person.

Johnny Milner: 02:02
So Alan Patner is a is a as a LinkedIn profile and he provides educational posts on surveying and and how we go about doing our job and also how we report. So he’s he’s he’s informing the public in a entertaining way, would I say? Yeah, if if if you’ve seen I I I’d recommend people have a look at his content on on LinkedIn.

Nina Young: 02:30
So is it double is it a double T pattern?

Johnny Milner: 02:32
It is it is yeah.

Nina Young: 02:33
P-A-D-T-N- For anyone listening.

Johnny Milner: 02:35
Yeah.

Nina Young: 02:36
Okay.

Johnny Milner: 02:36
Yeah, but uh I think the reality is is that um we needed him as a as a parody account uh to relieve some of the the tension that there is in our sector.

Nina Young: 02:51
Is it a bit tongue in cheek?

Johnny Milner: 02:52
Is it a bit I would say so, yeah. And it was interesting seeing the reactions to his post because I I’m I’m a big believer in that if you want to find something out, just post something on LinkedIn that is completely wrong, and people will fall over themselves to tell you what the right answer is. So, and and Alan’s kind of done that in a way. I think that there’s been a paranoia in the industry, is that uh everybody’s looking at everybody as being not up to scratch. And I think that that’s kind of in a way, we’ve probably asked for it in the way that some things have been done. But I’m amazed how many people say that they see other survey reports. I mean, until I got into a sort of management position, survey reports weren’t handed around a lot. And there’s social media commentary by surveyors on other survey sections, survey reports or sections of survey reports on how good or bad that report is. But we don’t know the whole context of it. We don’t know the rest of the report, we don’t know what was happening on site, we don’t know the pre-inspection phone call with the customer or a post-inspection phone call with the customer detail in it. We’re basing it on what we can see, and we’ll see usually a damp meter stuck into a piece of masonry. And that’s the red rag, isn’t it? So there’s an element of every surveyor I talk to, they say, I’m a competent surveyor. Going back to what we were saying earlier, is I’m a competent surveyor, but I’ve seen these other reports and they’re not competent. If you talk to that many people, and everybody’s saying that they’re competent, but someone else isn’t, who is and who isn’t? And it’s created this whole social media amplifies this, but um, whole distrust of anybody in the industry. And I mean, that has kind of been highlighted by some of the disciplinary cases more recently, is where people who have been held in high regard, and then there’s been disciplinary cases that have made people question who everybody is. Um I think I think the the reaction to that as well is that it was almost yes, this person’s done wrong, and there’s been a disciplinary case and it’s found this, this, and this. But it they did well in they did some good stuff, or I worked with them, or I know them, or I brush past them kind of thing, is that it’s like, yeah, they did wrong, but let’s not go in at the knees. Whereas others that people don’t know, it’s it’s the pitchforks are straight there. And yeah, I feel sorry for anybody going through that.

Nina Young: 05:19
I did I I I took the the the same to that certain individual recently, and I I took the same viewpoints and that, yes, you know, they they’d done something, something wrong, but however, I’d always heard good things about some of the work that they’d done. But it was to me what was really concerning to see was the length at which people went to to really go at go at this, you know, who else is out there, how bad is it? It was almost to me, my my my thoughts, and this is not based on any facts, is that the residential surveying profession is painted in many ways in a bleaker light because of certain individuals on social media who are the ones that shout the loudest, who have some of them have these certain opinions, and they’re taken as as red that that’s representative of the entire profession. But however, when you look at some of the figures from the RSCS and the level and the amount of complaints that actually come through in disciplinaries compared to their membership, it’s actually very small. And it’s like then I think if it was rife, but it’s almost like we get one thing or there’s something that comes out in the news, and then it’s like, oh well, everyone everyone’s questioning everybody, and there is this pervasive, like lack of trust that has just spread over the last probably long time longer than the last five years, but and there’s this always one-upmanship that you see online, like on a LinkedIn. The opinions are great, and I it’s like I’ve never seen a profession that has a tendency to go at each other, and especially in residential, of all because I look across talks to surveyors from all uh areas of surveying. I always notice more in residential where there’s this kind of you know, people very quick to dig and and and criticize and like what is this doing to the future generations who are on social media and what they’re looking at all this?

Johnny Milner: 07:17
Yeah, I I think some of it is because we’re we’re we’re B2C rather than B2B, so therefore we’re dealing with the public rather than it being a commercial transaction. So there’s emotion. There are people that are classed as not sophisticated investors or buyers in that way, so it is a bit more emotive in that way. But I think that’s why I like the fact that Alan Patner came into it and he’s done a bit of a Mickey take, basically, in uh highlighting how some people act and also drawn out people commenting on it thinking that it was legit what he was saying, and maybe made us, you know, laugh at each other a bit, I think, is that at the end of the day, our job can be incredibly serious, important, it can be very easy at times where it can go sideways sideways very quickly and become something more. But we’re not comforting parents that their kids are dying, you know. We are we are basically commenting on stones and brick that are connected together with a bit of sand, grit, and water. Uh so I think that we need to just put it into context is that there’s more going on in the world than our self-importance and that. And I think that Alan Patner kind of made us go, you know what, I can see myself in there, or I can see certain people in that, and is elite, he’s gives some levity to the industry.

Nina Young: 08:43
I haven’t seen much of this stuff, but I’ve I’ve I’ve touched on some of it, and you know, I was like, what is this? They’re kind of this can’t be real, this can’t be real. It is a quite obvious, but obviously not to everyone.

Johnny Milner: 08:55
It’s so unreal, it’s real. Yeah. Yeah, exactly that. But yeah, the toxic culture is it’s uh I say about the the disciplinary side of things, and people, yeah, it’s it’s not a be nice, is it? That seems to have been well forgotten in all areas. Um, and I do feel for people that are going through that, but also you’ve you said that you noticed the people out with the pitchforks about that, but then there was also the people kind of justifying it as well, but that’s because they had some stake in that they they knew that person. Whereas other people who they don’t know, it will be they’ve done this, there they must be terrible. And it’s like we we don’t know these people, we don’t know that their actual motives, it has to go through a process. We can’t be judge, jury, and executioner, it has to go through a process.

Nina Young: 09:41
So yeah, and I think it’s easy to come from vision of I think one of the things that I had to stop myself commenting, you know, I was like, uh, shall I say something? But for me, there’s too much of this virtue signalling. Look how rubbish they are, I’m amazing, look at how good we are. That I think is there’s a lot of that that happens across residential and sort of the independent damp surveyor scene. And it’s it’s kind of that came up kind of in that that recent disciplinary case as to, well, you know, it’s an RICS member type thing. And I’m just like, really? It’s and I think it’s it’s it gets to a stage where it’s like, let’s get out of the playground, let’s grow up. I think, yes, it’s it, you know, it was, you know, a bad thing, and the disciplinary is is quite rightly so. However, personally, like getting vendettas against individuals, I don’t find that, no matter what, as something I would respect from other professionals when you go at it a certain way. And I don’t think they realize that. Is that how they come across? Some people might jump on that bandwagon, but a lot of people will go, that’s too far. And you know, it doesn’t reflect well on them. Anyway,

Nina Young: 10:53
moving on from you know, a little bit of that independence versus corporate surveyors. So this was around you talked about what you recommend to new entrants and the fact that there is a lot of this independent versus corporate surveyor talk a lot of the time. But like you’ve said, there’s more in common than divides.

Johnny Milner: 11:15
Yeah, absolutely. I’ve done both. So, and the sector that’s forgotten about to me is local authority, because that is almost not is working as a surveyor within a local authority seems to be pushed to the back after all of them. And I think that there’s a a demand for surveyors there, and I think that it’s a good experience, and it probably gives some people the lifestyle that they want. Your earnings won’t be as well as what they are in private practice, your hours would probably be better, your life work balance will be better, and you get to get around a lot of different types of property. So it’s not just your right to buy, you know, your council housing stock, but you’ll get around all the municipal buildings that they have and their uh commercial interests and land, and it’s I think it’s a good opportunity. I did my sandwich year at a local authority uni, and the variation there was great. They do still regarding the competencies, they don’t get to the level on certain ones. So sometimes you’d have to be seconded out to other areas or to another company to get that experience. But I think that it’s one of these that is kind of social housing, local authority surveyors don’t seem to get a great deal of spotlight in parts of our industry. I think probably with our ab’s law and more interesting condensation and mould that’s been over the last couple of years, is there is more towards that now. But uh, I don’t think it’s something that should be dismissed in people’s options when looking at it. I do think that there is this independent surveyors uh versus corporates. All corporates are stack of mice, sell them cheap, all independent surveyors are well, I wouldn’t be surprised if we uh just independent surveyors saying that they go out and do the outside one day and then they go back the next day to do the inside because they’d spend so long on a property and they only do three a week kind of situation. Is that if you’re you get your experience as a surveyor by seeing properties, and you it’s like when people ask to shadow, you go, Well, you know, you can come along with me, but I don’t know if we’re going to find anything at this property. You have to do it repetitively to be able to go, oh, we’ve found one here that’s got some dry rot. We’ve found one here. If you’re a corporate surveyor, and let’s take it to an extreme that you’re doing 10 surveys a week, against the independent doing three surveys a week, you’re three times more experienced in a week, in every week, by seeing three times more properties.

Speaker 3: 13:46
Yeah.

Johnny Milner: 13:46
Independents will say, Yeah, but they do it to a different depth, they learn more about individual customer care, and I can see that. I think that if you are new to the game, going into a corporate environment is going to expose you to lots of properties. It’s going to put you into an organization that has audit, risk, customer care, complaints, yeah. Teams of people that deal with the whole risk management for the company of you going out there and doing your bit. Independent surveyors, you’ve probably got one person that you’d refer to, or a WhatsApp group, or a Facebook group, or some kind of online.

Nina Young: 14:34
So there’s a narrowing of opinions and experience, isn’t there, as well? Exposure and different peers and different people to ask.

Johnny Milner: 14:40
Yeah. You work at a corporate, you have a regional as well. You’d have a regional manager, you would have regional group get-togethers with other surveyors. You’ve got a surveyor in another patch next to you who you can then communicate with on, especially on the evaluations. So I think that there, to me, I would say to somebody coming into it is corporate for for a for a time that’s right for you. Is you you you you’ll have that safety net, you’ll have a group of people around you to support you. Also, if you’re going to corporate, you’re probably going to do secured lending. So you will learn about lenders’ guidance notes, you will learn about what their quirks are, what they want, and how they want you to report it. So going further into your career, then you can take away with it and you can report to your clients on issues that an independent surveyor who’s never done that may not be aware of. That if you go and do a survey on a property that’s got a flying freehold, you can highlight that to your customer that that percentage of flying threehold may be above what most lenders will accept. Therefore, even if they’re a cash purchaser, if they come to sell that property, it’s probably going to be a mortgage involved in it. So that’s going to cause them a problem. So you have eyes on stuff that you can add value to reporting further on in your career if you’ve got an understanding of what lenders want.

Nina Young: 16:06
I think it’s a common, I think you’re in more the common, the main of what I’ve I’ve heard over the years is that when you’re starting out, it’s definitely a good, a good what start, a route, because you get the support, the training, the different viewpoints, the, you know, like you say, complaints, there’s there’s so much more exposure. And you do have to look at a lot of properties, and there’s there’s criticism around that. But when you’re learning, you need as much as you can exposure as possible. And also not just one surveyor who’s done things one way for perhaps a very long time. Whereas in obviously that you’ve got to follow guidelines in certain ways, but even surveyors in corporates have certain quirks or things that they will do a certain way as long as they were within the certain parameters of what they’re supposed to be doing. And I think that’s that’s really valuable because I remember when I did a bit of shadowing and I I shadowed three residential surveyors, and they were all different. They’re all different, how they approach things and different ways and different views. And I I found that valuable. But I know that some may struggle if there were just one viewpoint because that’s not representative.

Johnny Milner: 17:20
No, you you’ve got to get the experience from that, and you’ve got to pick out the best bits that fit you, suit you, and find out what is the what you consider to be the best route forward for you learning how you do and putting those different things into practice. But we do have things, we have we have a lot more in common than we don’t between independent and corporate surveyors, is that we are doing the job, we are doing the home to the home survey standard. We are all governed by that same thing. So we are all trying to give the customer the best service that we can do. I you hear comments about templated reports, words are template. I mean you you you you hear about standard paragraphs, uh, you know, surveys that use templates and standard paragraphs, and then you talk to an independent surveyor and you go, So you mean every time that you go out and you see a property with your brick chimney stack, you go out and you type brick chimney stack, clay pots, cement flaunching, lead flashing, blah, blah, blah. You go, oh now I gone past report and I cut a copy and paste it from my last report. So that’s a standard paragraph, isn’t it? So and then they will poo-poo that kind of standard paragraphs, templated reports, but then be pro-AI, which to me, AI is making you in standard paragraphs and templated reports will be the AI way, because it will it will want uniformity. It’s giving your customer, and most businesses look at systemization, don’t they, and getting consistency on the their output.

Nina Young: 18:53
It feels like this is another example of uh residential surveyors looking inwards to each other to criticize, compete, and prove that they’re better than the other, instead of actually looking at what does the client want. I don’t know, it’s like this this is quite common, isn’t it? It seems the first pot of call is to criticize each other as opposed to how can we be better as a profession and how can we serve our clients better? I don’t know. I to me better. I don’t know.

Johnny Milner: 19:20
It’s it’s territorial, isn’t it? It’s yes than Nirvana song, territorial pissings of dick in Nirvana song is basically is this this is my my territory and no one else can come on it because I put a stamp on it here, and it’s yeah, I I do hear people say that about certain patches, and it’s 20 years ago I was living there and I was doing surveys on it there. So I you know I was there decades before the person became a surveyor, kind of thing. But um, I I do think that we need to be more collaborative against that word with each other. We’d learn more, and I don’t think anybody being a residential surveyor is going to become a multimillionaire. So why are we being so cutthroat in how we’re dealing with each other if they know that the the rewards are not at that point that you would have to change to be that person?

Nina Young: 20:08
Yeah, it’s uh for me, it always comes back to you demonstrate your worth, USP, how you stand out. You know, bringing someone else down is such a very, very bad way to make yourself look better. I think it’s I think people see through it. This is the other thing. People do see through that. If you constantly criticize someone else, you’re like, well, why do you feel the need to do that? That’s quite rife.

Nina Young: 20:31
The next one is actually the home survey standard version two.

Speaker 3: 20:36
B2.

Nina Young: 20:36
So there’s been a lot of work in this and consultations. Where I don’t know where we are with it. Where are we with with we’re waiting for we’re waiting on it?

Johnny Milner: 20:44
I think the update will be on the website when I last asked. I can imagine though, is people do say, well, where is it? It’s taking ages. Is there’s been a lot of movement in sellers survey side of things that I think that you’d have to gauge that they’ve got to keep an eye on what else is going on in the market as well. Um so I can I can I I appreciate why there’s a delay. So especially when you you you consider that there will be people that will still not have read the first version, uh, there’ll be people that are still not compliant with the first version. So maybe we need to get that right before we start to ratchet up a bit. But I’d put in there is is like the version two and why it’s got to be fit for purpose for for many people, not just a few people, because you’re gonna get the like I say, the people who want to do three a day, three a week, sorry. Uh three a day, that’s push it. And then you’ve got the volume more volume side of things where they they they they have to because they’re a business and they have to put food on people’s tables and they’ve got to fill diary space. Is are the changes to that fit for it’s got to be almost like a Venn diagram? Is it is it fit for the customer? Is it fit for the surveyor? Do they have the competency? Because we’re always gonna have to default to the lowest in that way, the weakest. This link is that needs to that needs to be upped, but if the surveyors can’t do the job in the time that they’ve got, we’re onto a loser already. And onto that is that is you’ve got it’s got to fit a business model. So it’s got to be fit for the the companies to still operate and make a margin on, otherwise you’re gonna get corners cut.

Nina Young: 22:23
Yeah, because I think if more things are demanded out of it, which I’d heard things like, you know, testing, testing appliances, or I could be wrong, but yeah, and you know, there’s a lot of kickoff through that, and you you’re like, yeah, a lot of these, a lot of firms, huge proportion of firms are SME, and then they do have tight margins. So then if you start putting extra work in, it’s really tough. And you’re right, it’s not it’s not corporates, it’s not SMEs, it’s it’s across the board. What is reasonable to do in a certain amount of time to give a good outcome for the client.

Johnny Milner: 22:56
I mean, look, look at so two issues and sort of smaller bonds, is is that like using an ananometer that goes over the extracted fans to see what the flow is on those. They’re like damp meters in a way, and what you can pay, you can pay 30 quid for them or you can pay a grand for them, kind of thing. But that’s a that’s a cost there for a business. So if if you’ve got a firm, a corporate firm, say that’s 500 surveyors, at 30 quid you’re looking at what, 15 grand or so, you know. So you’ve got a cost there. I think with that type of type of equipment, you’re also stepping back in time with damp as we were with damp meters, where people didn’t know how to use damp meters or interpret them. So we’re starting the ball rolling again on another piece of equipment that we’re probably gonna use incorrectly or not know how to interpret what is pushing out unless we properly train. So there’s a training cost then to businesses as well as that providing that piece of equipment. So otherwise you’re gonna get pictures on social media and putting on putting them in very strange places. But if you looked at, say, a a core uh a 500 surveying firm and you asked them to make changes to the home survey standard of saying testing the hob, testing some sockets, and it added five minutes to the job, that adds up to what is it, um, about 42 hours a week on one job across your 500 surveyors. So that’s a working week. Um, I did some other calcs on it kind of thing, and it basically, if over a 46 working week, working year, you’re looking at something like 500 surveyors, you’re looking at it being about five years, two months in just extra time for that. So is it is it sustainable to do that and ask other firms to do these little bits that are just uh as surveyors, we’ve always had that, oh while you’re here, will you just take this? We’ll just take that, we’ll just you know, look at the EPC, make sure that that’s right.

Nina Young: 24:57
That’s different from putting it in the standard though, isn’t it, and making it an actual requirement of the standard. But also for me, it’s like, well, what is the level of what is that doing that test gonna actually give to that buyer? You know, what what level of risk it, you know, how much detail do you go into for the level of time, the cost of the survey? You know, surely the focus is on risk levels and exposure and cost. Are they gonna go back and go, well, this did this measure and it the hob’s not working, I want to knock some money off. I don’t know. It’s it it’s kind of comes back to well, what’s the purpose of putting all these things in?

Johnny Milner: 25:35
Yeah. Uh yeah, and and it’s the you know, operating test kind of thing, and then you’re still gonna ask for a rec some somebody to to confirm that it’s safe. I can see from another side, from the customer side, is that if they’ve paid you the equivalent of what is their weekly wage or the best part of to do a survey to potentially spend two hours on site and two hours writing a report, if they’ve asked you, can you just flick the switches on? And you go, no, it seems a bit I know, I know it’s a difficult one.

Nina Young: 26:08
It’s what for me, it’s what you write into the standard as a as a kind of a a minimum, and then based on okay, risk and and expectations and standards, and then what is it something that a survey will do? Because also the the side of that is you add more things in but prescriptively, then you’re more exposed with claims.

Johnny Milner: 26:29
Yeah, you are, yeah. And it’s will they take it that you’ve tested them or you’ve you’ve you’ve operated them and you’ve said that and you’ve put a green next to it that then people will go, oh yeah, it’s fine then. Just the same as people see a red next to a gas and they go, Well, it’s condemned.

Nina Young: 26:48
Yeah.

Johnny Milner: 26:48
So it’s it’s people’s interpretation of that.

Nina Young: 26:51
So there’s more things to worry about.

Johnny Milner: 26:54
Yeah.

Nina Young: 26:55
But is is there really like signific you know, it’s kind of like you say, people panic, don’t they? The electrics are red.

Johnny Milner: 27:02
Yeah, yeah. I I I can see if you’re reframing it into a customer’s request, is you know, well, why why didn’t you? I mean, yeah. You turn the light, if you go in a room, you turn the light on, you’ve operated it. The light switch. So, you know, flush a toilet, turn a tap on, you know, is it, is it but the level two was always well, was before described more explicitly as an economic and concise report. And I liked that that’s what it was called, that is how it was tagged, is because that’s what to me a level two is. If you want and if you want beyond that, you don’t have a level 2.5 or a level two plus or whatever some want to offer. You have a level three where that is done. But if you want to just have yeah, if you just want the headlines on a property, then you have an economic and concise report, which is a level two for me.

Nina Young: 28:00
Okay.

Nina Young: 28:00
The um seller surveys we’ve talked about, one of your points was will they actually happen?

Johnny Milner: 28:07
Well that’s a crystal ball, isn’t it?

Nina Young: 28:09
That’s yeah. I I’m I’m not close to this at all at the moment. So, and like you were talking about the Scottish system, and we had been here before with the home inspection packs a lot of the hips.

Johnny Milner: 28:23
Yep. 2007 got canned in 2010, I think it was. We seem to be repeating the same kind of patterns in that there was an RICS review just before that one, just as we’ve had the Bichard review, there was a prime minister who left, there was potentially an election and then a move to the right, and then it got canned. So it’s all kind of history repeating itself in a in a societal kind of sense, is that but we’ve been there, the noises were were were very similar. I know people who lost lots of money in very like regional estate agents who lost like 300 grand yearing themselves up for the implementation of hips. It’s it’s the the survey part of it is further down the line on the roadmap. Will it get kicked? I don’t know what stage anything is in in the government process of green, pink, and white papers at. But I think that lots of things that that that they’re doing to improve the home buying and selling uh are coming in. And I think that like we had last time we had the EPC come out of it, is that we will have other bits come out of it, but it seems to be more that it’s a wholesale kind of change of it. They’re trying to get a lot of things going at the same time. If you’re a betting person, I don’t think I put a bet on it. Uh, it has to be mandated for it to be, otherwise, it’s gonna be a nice to have. Wait, it’s like a bit like using a buyer’s agent to buy an average property. They they don’t really, they’ve got to go in at the top end, the posh end, because buyers agents, people, you know, money, cash-rich, time poor kind of people. I don’t think that would it’d have to be.

Nina Young: 30:02
Do you think do you think with up the upfront surveys? It’s that it would it’s gonna put a lot of people off putting on their property on the market in the first place. You know, people I mean it could stop the time wasters a bit, but like trying it out, like yeah.

Johnny Milner: 30:14
I think if if you if you’re serious about selling, then that amount of money is not gonna what it’s gonna do is is you you and that you weren’t serious about selling, but it will put uh maybe speculative people in you. I think I looked at some figures and in London, something like only 48% of properties that were put on the market had sold. So you look at that, there’s 52% of people that have paid for a seller’s survey for no reason. So and I guess it would have to be ironed out whether that out what’s the validity period of that seller’s survey then. If you then decide to put it back on the market in a year’s time, the condition’s not going to be the same as what it is now, so you’re gonna have to do it again. So that’s got to be thought about from the the Scottish system, which seems to be not wanted south of the border, and the argument that I seen repeatedly is that it killed all the independent survey side. Again, is that a self-serving attitude to have? Does it give the customer what they want? Is it just surveyors looking? They are you’re gonna put rather than pivoting, or they’re gonna have to adapt to the situation, or is it gonna be, is it just I mean, I don’t think legislation coming from a mining and steelworking town in the 80s, I don’t think government really legislation having an impact on whole communities back then that they’re gonna that uh you know surveyors won’t be able to order a new BMW or go to Disneyland. I don’t think that that’s gonna be on their radar of of how they they in enact this. But the Scottish system to me is that it’s already in place, there’s a framework around it, there could be market data on it, you know, what are the what are the problem what are the complaints there are in them? Uh I don’t know whether an organization is gathering this information, but how many, how many are done versus how many have complaints raised against them, how many other surveys go on after them, how many ask for further investigations, you know, what is the sentiment from customers on these? Was it worth it, or is it just well, we had to do it because it’s part of the law. Um the banks, I hear that the there’s some that don’t like them, but they they’re used to dealing with them. So if they if they lend over the uh in Scotland, then they they’ve got policies, procedures, and uh process in place for them. So and I don’t hear any noises from Scotland, Scottish people saying we want the English and Welsh system. So is it that bad? Or is it that with looking at it from a like I say, self-serving surveying kind of this will kill off? Because people will look at it and they will go the same as they do mortgage valuation, they go, it’s had a mortgage valuation, it’s alright. But the mortgage valuation is in the survey, they will go, it’s had a seller’s survey on it, so I don’t have to get another survey, do I?

Nina Young: 33:04
Yeah.

Johnny Milner: 33:05
I can I can see why that would do that to the market.

Nina Young: 33:08
Yeah, it’s a big question mark, and there’s a lot of unease around it, but like you say, it could take forever.

Johnny Milner: 33:13
Yeah, and I mean the Scottish one, the home file, it is the single survey, it is the EPC, and it is a property uh form, like a like the TA6 form as such that we have. The survey usually has a valuation though as well. So I don’t think that we’re gonna go down that route this side of the border, uh, from what I’ve heard. Um, if it did, and they did have a valuation in it, then there would surely be more of a market advantage to firms that do valuations and are on lender panels and do used to deal with secured lending because having your seller’s survey done without a valuation or with a valuation done by a firm that is not accepted by a bank means you’re then gonna have to go through another cost or another process.

Nina Young: 33:57
That’s a good point.

Johnny Milner: 33:58
Or your buyer is.

Nina Young: 33:59
I think it’s something to watch, isn’t it? Just gotta watch it and see how it evolves.

Johnny Milner: 34:03
Yeah, and I don’t see how it ties up in that you know, seller, you know, evaluation on a seller’s survey and the definition of market value and do people too pinned to that valuation figure. So there’s lots of considerations on that.

Nina Young: 34:18
There’s lots of foods for thought with it, I think. And it’s keeping an eye on how it evolves. And um, your uh the last the last couple of topics kind of tied together, it’s uh which is a good one.

Nina Young: 34:28
To F Ricks are not to F Rix, and also is star chartered status worth achieving. So tell me F Ricks Fellowship. That’s a fellow, is there?

Johnny Milner: 34:40
Fellow fellow, yeah. So you’ve got the three the three grades as such is the associate member M R-I-C-S, which used to be known as A R-I-C-S, and then you’ve got F R-I-C-S, the fellowship. I don’t because there I don’t see that there’s uh any value in it being given back for the increasing the subscription that you have to play. Um I I think I’d be on personally, I’d only be doing it for maybe ego to have F R-I-C S, and I don’t see that it’s there. Um I think that when you could then you become F R-I-C S, you can’t then demote yourself to M R I C S. So yeah. So and I don’t know whether there’s the same situation whether you can go from M R I C S to Associate if you wanted to, because I’m assuming that the associate came in after the any change to the bylaw that stops you from going from F R-I-C S to M R-I-C S. So that’s that’s why I won’t until until values started to be added to it, that there is some protection on F R-I-C-S. I think that if you’re doing expert witness work, then I think that you that you should be F R-I-C S. I think anything to do with where you’ve got to show your experiences, yeah, you you did that should be then and that’s protected as being for just for F R I C S, that work for F R-I-C S, then then it would be worthwhile. There’s got to be I think there’s got to be gates between different levels of membership. Yeah, I’m not basing that on competency because I know that there’s again to do with the toxicity in the industry, there’s this uh discussion uh between associates and chartered members, and that’s to help by the pathway of getting from one to the other. Um and it doesn’t have any you could have an extremely competent associate who’s more competent in doing a job than a fellow. But I do think that there has to be gates there as a risk management process to say they came in, yeah, they’re really good as an associate, they’re gonna be amazing when they’re FRICS because they’ve gone through the stages of experience and the years under your belt. You do learn. My first boss told me uh I when I qualified, I said, Right, I’m qualified, great. Um have a pay rise. And then he he said, You’re not worth anything to me until you’re two years post-qualification because you’re gonna make all your mistakes in the first two years. And it obviously you feel gutted at the time because it’s a bit like you know, you you think you’ve a you know you’ve you’ve done it. But looking back on that, I’m like, yeah, absolutely right. Is that’s and that’s that’s sort of leading.

Nina Young: 37:26
Is that is is that what you mean about the chartered thing as well? Yeah, yeah.

Johnny Milner: 37:30
So that’s that’s kind of leading on to that. Is that is there’s there needs to be protection of of of the chartered status in a way, and I know that there is in a wider sense, but as a residential surveyor, I can do the same job as what I’m doing being an associate, as I can being chartered. I think most associate members come into it wanting to uh it it’s supposed to be an entry level, and I think that just like you’ve got the difference between architectural technologists, I think is that the right term from and an architects in the I think you should be able to come through, but you should be able to uh you know, you have to have certain jobs and then you need to progress to the next stage, and that’s the carrot is that more jobs become open to you.

Speaker 3: 38:16
Yeah.

Johnny Milner: 38:16
I mean it’s again, I’m like not based on competency, but just to have that discussion around protecting the chartered status because it’s the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors institution, sorry, and it’s the we we do those reports under that banner as well. But if you’re not a chartered surveyor, you can still do that because she can do it as a member of the RICS. So at the level two.

Nina Young: 38:52
Yeah, I think it’s a criticism and uh I think it’s wrong, and it’s I think there’s there’s there’s there’s merits for what exactly what you’re saying, and you know, becoming chartered, it’s it’s it’s something to be proud of, and it’s it’s it’s also that sort of gait and it’s a moment in time, but then you have to maintain your competency.

Johnny Milner: 39:11
Yeah, and and what’s the incentive to become chartered if you can do the same work? What what is the incentive to pay more in subscriptions? What is the incentive to say that the chartered status isn’t eroded in that way, if you look at it?

Nina Young: 39:29
I guess yeah, there’s not as much incentive, is there, in that area.

Johnny Milner: 39:32
And it’s the brand as well, is that is people buy, you know, people ask for it for a an RICS survey. Um it’s a bit like recently there was the the watch company, Odemars, did the link up with Swatch to do a smaller pop watch. And so then Od Odemars cost, I don’t know, 30 grand, 50 grand for a watch. They tied up with Swatch and they did these little watches for 350 quid. And it’s there was there’s a lot of publicity around it. Some of the people who had the Odomars who were collectors of them were this is cheaper than the brand. You could look at it that they’re making it inspirational that you get the 350 quid watch for your 18th, 21st birthday or whatever, and then you go, you know, when I make it, I’m gonna get the proper, you know, the full watch as such. The the only reason why there was desirability for the the 350 quid one is because of the brand of the 30, 50 grand watch, the Odomards, what I got decades, centuries of brand building, centuries of you know expertise put into it, and protecting that brand in what they do is how it’s one of the four privately owned um uh watch companies in Switzerland. Is that’s what the chartered ship is like, that’s the brand, that’s what everybody goes for is is is the chartered ship. And if Oda Mars wasn’t as as protected and as niche and as sought after as what it is, prestige, then would would people have been cooing round the block to get the 350 quid version?

Nina Young: 41:09
Yeah, it’s it’s it it reminds me of something that I came across years ago in my audit days, and um I audited Fornton’s Chocolates. Yeah. It’s great, got to look around the chocolate factory, it was amazing, put on so much weight in a week because we had free chocolates every day. It was brilliant as a client, but one of the things they were discussing, um, and I raised this, was that at that point they were proposing that they would start to put Thornton’s chocolates through retail through supermarkets. And I remember saying, that’s gonna harm your brand because you are seen as being exclusive specialist luxury chocolates. But they went ahead, it’s in supermarkets, they did that, like just on the shelf next to a Snickers, and then who came in? Hotel chocolate, who literally have taken that position. And it it it reminds me of that is that if you don’t protect that whole identity and and what you stand for, but also invest in that. And if it’s going to be to get some quick wins or quick books any way you can, it’ll it’ll bite you.

Speaker: 42:19
Yeah. Thoughtons have gone bankrupt, haven’t they? I think. Have they? Yeah, I don’t think they’re operating anymore.

Nina Young: 42:25
Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. Oh my word, because I the when I did the audit, they were about to that was when they were going on the stock exchange, they were about to float. Yeah, right.

Johnny Milner: 42:34
But no, that’s that that’s what I kind of see it is that you the unless you protect the chartered status, that’s that’s that’s the seller, that’s the the thing is is is what people are aspiring to be. And if there isn’t a reason to aspire to be it, uh you can say about things that have gone off, or you can say about competency and that, but it’s not, it’s about you know having that buying that label as such, going through that process of investing yourself in it to become it, is that’s why I think there should be gates between the different and you should only be able to do certain types of instruction. You could you could have a stage where we would have a RICS regulated company producing RICS products that has no chartered surveyor in it. And that could be a you know a 500, that five and that mythical 500 surveyor company could have no chartered surveyors working in it, yet it’s a chartered, it’s a it’s a it’s a regulated by the RICS regulator, uh, RICS product company. That doesn’t kind of connect for me.

Nina Young: 43:41
Yeah, no, I think it it makes sense, and I think going forward it’s gonna be interesting to see how this how this does play out with all the changes that are happening. We have gone through a lot, haven’t we? Too much. That’s really good. There’s lots of things. Um before we uh wrap up, is there anything else you want to add? For anyone listening. I think we’ve um maybe covered it all.

Speaker: 44:03
Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah.

Johnny Milner: 44:05
I mean, other than kind of diversity in the profession and what we want to see uh more of, and uh what we need to see is that I think that we are seeing more diversity in it. When I started off in my career, there used to be a room full of 50 men and one woman, and now that’s it’s still not a great deal more, but it’s it there still is it’s increased uh a bit. Is we need, I think, to see who’s the who’s the Jeff Hunt or the Tim Kenny of female surveyors. I don’t see see that. Um I think that whether is there a glass ceiling in surveying. I’ve I’ve worked, I’ve had when I was on the RICS Governing Council, there was in the five presidents I served under, two of them were female. I’ve had two female uh managing directors, Alison Travers Sony, e Serve and Alison Beecher Value Nation. I’ve currently got a film and female uh risk director who I work under, uh Rebecca, who you’ve uh had a podcast with. But I don’t see representation of on the tools. Um maybe that is my feed is limited. Maybe my view is uh not as good as what it should be, kind of thing.

Nina Young: 45:17
But um I think it’s I think it’s yeah, you’re right, it’s not it’s not the same, not the same level, but I think it is improving. Someone that just came to mind who she doesn’t hasn’t come from as typical residential surveying background was is Rosie, Rosie Wills. I think she was on the podcast and she’s someone that I see kind of pioneering things, and she kind of came to mind. But generally speaking, there is a there is a lack of that, I must admit.

Johnny Milner: 45:44
No, there is no that’s good, that’s a good point to be fair, yeah. I’ve seen Rosie um on a yeah on a couple now, so yeah, that’d be good. Um the thing is with LinkedIn is consistency, isn’t it? Is he’s repeatedly posting to get awareness and getting visibility on it. But we need that. Yeah, I mean, there was we need that. Um there was some research done uh about X-Files, Scul um Scully is it on X-Files, Julian Anderson.

Nina Young: 46:10
Yeah Julian Anderson, yeah.

Johnny Milner: 46:12
Yeah, um, there was some research done on that, and apparently um Scully’s character in that may there’s 62 percent of women said that who was part of this 2000 uh survey said that she inspired them to go into STEM areas or into professions that were male dominated. It was 62% from that character on ex-files. We need the surveying equivalent.

Nina Young: 46:35
Yeah, we do, don’t we? Yeah, we totally do, and I I have seen some of it start to emerge over the last sort of two years, three years. So I think I think it’s coming, it’s just very slow. Yeah, I think there’s there is a lot of appetite for it. And I I think you’re right. I think there’s more, there’s there’s less likely to be. It’s also who you see. I think there are amazing female surveyors out there, but they just don’t want to be on social media or they don’t want to shout about it. And and you know, and I think that’s also part of it. We don’t just we just they’re just not visible, but they’re out there. But we do need more of that public facing and and across the profession because that just inspires everyone else.

Johnny Milner: 47:16
Yeah, it’s the C it be it kind of thing, isn’t it?

Nina Young: 47:19
I think that you you know that’s that’s a great uh that’s a great topic to finish on then, Johnny. Thank you, uh thank you very much. I mean, there is so much we’ve we’ve gone at today, and obviously we’ve we’re gonna split this into two episodes. I’ll include, shall I include a link to your LinkedIn? Do you want to do you wanna be on the show now?

unknown: 47:39
Yeah.

Speaker: 47:40
You can do if you want. Yeah.

Nina Young: 47:43
Really good topics. Thank you very much for today. It’s been great.

Speaker: 47:46
Oh, thank you. Thank

Speaker: 47:47
you.

Nina Young: 47:48
Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveys UK, bringing surveys together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.