Surveying Careers: Why We Need to Talk to Parents

Speaker 1: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode.

Nina Young: 00:35
Hello, everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. This week’s guest is Annabelle Hoffer. Hello, Annabelle. Welcome. Hello. So Annabelle is a associate chartered building surveyor for Night Frank and is also also the RICS Matrix UK chair, which I believe was from June this year. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Yeah. I’ve followed a lot of what you’ve been doing over the years, Annabelle. I am impressed, I must admit. You’re always doing something. I won’t go too much about all the awards and everything, but incredible achievements. And I think this is going to be a very interesting and inspiring conversation to have, especially for some of the areas we’re going to talk about today, which is around apprenticeships, bringing younger people into the profession, and also encouraging more women into surveying as

Nina Young: 01:26
well. So what I tend to do with everybody, I always would like to know and get a little bit about your background and most importantly, what led you to become a building surveyor?

Annabel Huffer: 01:38
Firstly, thank you very much for the invitation on this podcast today. I’m really pleased to be here and thank you for your kind words. So, how did I become a building surveyor? My father is a general practice valuation surveyor. So I grew up knowing about the RSCS and the property industry. When I was 16, I did some work experience. I spent a day with him doing some valuing. And then I also spent the following day with a team of building surveyors from his firm. I quite quickly found that the building surveying work for me was much more interesting. I don’t think it helped that the value, the properties we went to value with my father, was a funeral parlour. And it wasn’t one of the more interesting ones. Whereas by contrast with the building surveyors, I went to inspect a building. It was down in Portsmouth on the south coast. And it was a treasure of condition for uh the dredging of the main sort of channel coming in for the new HMS Queen Elizabeth. Because the house was built in shingle. It was the most interesting thing I’ve ever seen. Uh, and still to this day, the most interesting building that I’ve ever surveyed. Really? And I don’t know what that kind of tells you about the buildings I’ve been on ever since. But it was, I mean, the floors were, you know, this guy had built beds that was four inches long on one side and and nine inches long on the other, just to get a flat surface to lie on. And it was absolutely fascinating. I’ve never seen anything like it. And that was why I chose to become a building surveyor. You haven’t looked back since? No, not at all. I love my job. I think it’s fascinating. I get to go into all sorts of different types of buildings, meet different types of people. No today’s are the same, but I think every surveyor probably says that. And I just, it’s a fascinating thing of you know, understanding how a building works, how it’s put together, and how we kind of solve problems. And that’s what I just find so fascinating about it. I have to agree.

Nina Young: 03:31
I do have a bias, and I have said this a few times on the podcast. My favourite area of surveying is building surveying. It’s it it is, and um, so it’s it’s it’s also great to have you on here because of that. With regards to the different types of buildings, do you have is there one particular, you know, because it’s so it’s so diverse in building surveying the different things you can work on. Is there one particular area that you favour over others?

Annabel Huffer: 03:56
I that’s a really interesting one. I don’t think so. When I first started, I had a bit of a bias towards sort of the contract admin side because I love law. And before I chose my profession, it was a bit of a toss-up between being a lawyer and going into law or going into property. And I chose property, which was brilliant because it satisfied my curiosity for the world around me, while also giving me the opportunity to use sort of my legal side of my head, which I really enjoy. And so contract admin was a really good one for that. Since I joined Night Frank over two years ago now, I do a lot more dilapidations work. I mean, obviously, around that, there’s the leases, there’s the legalities, the solicitors getting involved. And so I get to use it for that as well. And I think for me, I like to do lots of different things. When you’re doing lots of different things, there are obviously the challenges involved with going, you know, you’ve got a contract running. You might also have some reports that need writing for a certain deadline, and actually something happens on the project. But because that’s live and on site, you need to react to that very quickly, which can then take up time. And so the time elements of juggling all of it is quite difficult. But I don’t think I would want to go down necessarily just one route and specialise in one thing. I I enjoy the variety, lots of different things and lots of different types of buildings. And you know, my team here, we work on every different type of building under the sun, whether it be, you know, churches, garden centres, hotels, restaurants, offices. And I get exposed to all sorts of different things, which is always really quite fantastic, actually. I think that’s one of the things I love.

Nina Young: 05:35
I mean, don’t get me wrong, some areas, other areas of surveying have variety, like the other area I do like is residential. But I think in building surveying is that huge diversity of what I spoke into some civil building surveyors and what they actually work on is just incredibly interesting, though, you talk a lot about the legal aspect of building surveying. Is would you say sort of proportionally how much that pays sort of a part of the role? So with the the sort of a typical building surveyor’s day or workload, how much is sort of around the legal, would you say?

Annabel Huffer: 06:10
It varies as to where you are and what kind of work you’re involved in. My previous firm, it was really around the contract side of it with the contract law. Um and quite involved in that, you know, at the start, you’re drafting up the contracts and then you’re administering them. If there’s a dispute or you disagree with something, you obviously need to refer back to it. In my role here, involved a lot more in kind of negotiating terms and conditions and PI amounts and the wording around things to make sure that you know we can provide the service that the client needs while also ensuring you know that we’re we’re covered under a liability point of view. And I’m involved in those conversations a lot more together. And that, you know, we have a huge technical expertise, and some of the colleagues I’ve worked with over the years and do now, their knowledge is absolutely phenomenal and incredibly technical. But we also then need to understand some of the legalities of it and also understand what we don’t know to pass on to the right person who does.

Annabel Huffer: 07:08
That is so true.

Nina Young: 07:09
This leads on to then the next area that I’m very keen to talk to you about. You’ve done a lot spearheading apprenticeships that I’ve I’ve seen over the years. What is it that inspires you to sort of, you know, make it more visible the apprenticeship route to becoming a charter surveyor?

Annabel Huffer: 07:28
I think for me, I stumbled across it. I sort of wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to do when I was at college. Property was obviously quite a big factor, but I didn’t want to just sort of fall into it because it, you know, it was a family thing. I wanted to try and choose my own path. And I came across it. It was via the what was then the Chartered Surveyors Training Trust, and it is now the Environment Schools Trust, of which I have been a trustee for the past year, and have sadly now stepped down. But that enabled me to understand more about it and what was on offer. And it meant that I didn’t need to go to traditional university, which for me at the time, you know, I was I was quite academic. I used to got good grades at school, but university just wasn’t something that I wanted to do. I didn’t really feel the need to leave home to go and find myself or learn how to be independent. I’ve I’ve always been quite independent, and for all of my friends, that was what they wanted to do, which was fantastic. I mean, it served them all very, very well. But I knew that it wasn’t the path that I wanted, and I was the only one that was sort of not thinking about traditional university. And that was quite scary. And to fight this kind of structured route, which still got me a degree, and I got to use my academic abilities and my knowledge and continue to learn and grow while also working, just absolutely fit the bill for me. It was exactly what I wanted to do. And I, at A-level stage, I studied A-level law, but I also studied B Tech business, which again, a lot of stigma attached at the time. I’m hoping that’s changed, although I believe that B Techs are currently under review and are being more replaced by vocate other vocationals, such as sort of T-levels. But that for me was very coursework-based, and I was kind of learning about practical, real, real life things and you know, writing assignments rather than doing exams. And so for me, you know, the apprenticeship just totally kind of fit that for me. So I went away, I did a couple of ski seasons, didn’t want to come straight into the industry at 18, and then I started my apprenticeship. And the reason that I’m so passionate about it is that it provided me with so many opportunities, so much more confidence than I had then. All of the opportunities and awards and roles that I’ve got now have all come because of the apprenticeship. It was incredibly hard work, very, very challenging. And I do think it takes a certain type of person. I need somebody who’s very committed to the end result because it is hard. And especially that first year is I’m sure most other apprentices would agree, it’s really very difficult. But it was so worth it. And it has built my confidence, it’s given me so much technical knowledge. My colleagues I had on the apprenticeship were absolutely fantastic at imparting their knowledge and making sure that I was getting the experience I needed. And for me, I just I just want other people to be able to experience that. And it’s it’s such an exciting time for somebody, you know, that’s essentially the career that they may have for the rest of their life or 20 years or 15 years. And you are, you know, as an employer, we’re absolutely, you know, giving that person that opportunity to build their life and hopefully, you know, become a lasting person within the built environment for many, many years to come. So that’s why I’m so passionate about it. And I just think it’s fantastic. It’s such a fantastic scheme. And I work closely with University of the Built Environment, um, UCEM, as they were when I was there. And I just think they’re fantastic with what they offer for apprentices and people doing their masters with them or their undergraduates as well.

Nina Young: 11:01
I think, I think no, that’s that’s really good. Yeah, I can I can see how passionate you are about it. It definitely comes across. And it’s something that that is also really important to me. Um, I didn’t, I went a typical graduate route to university, but with university. But had I, when I look back now, had at the time there been an apprenticeship route, I mean, uh, you know, I I would have gone down that whole route, definitely, because I also was very independent, didn’t feel the need to, you know, move away. And and I just I I loved the idea of earning and learning, you know. And so, and also it just opens up the doors for so many people and people work differently. And it’s, you know, I I know you’re very academic, but some people aren’t just typically that academic, and it’s it’s a way of learning that suits them. And I also think one of the most powerful and beneficial things about doing an apprenticeship, it is really hard, but it equips you with, it gets you exposure to learning those and developing those soft skills, the communication, dealing with people right from day one. Whereas at university, it’s a very different environment. And so you come out and you’re qualifying for an apprenticeship, and you’ve you’ve gone through all of that having to communicate things, having to deal with difficult situations at work. And I think to me, that’s very, you know, a really positive side of it.

Annabel Huffer: 12:27
It is. That I think we need both routes. You you need people to go to university because that’s what they want to do. And you know, it teaches independence and you get new friendships, and and that in itself is a fantastic opportunity. On the flip side, you’ve got the apprenticeship scheme, which all the benefits I’ve just spoken about, but there aren’t enough apprenticeship schemes available. And that is such a big problem that you know, I speak to a lot of graduates and they say, Oh, I didn’t even know your friendship existed. I wish I’d had that opportunity, and I think I might have chosen that. And that’s brilliant, you know, that it’s got the recognition now and less of the stigma that it did have when I started. But actually, there aren’t enough roles available. When we advertised for our apprenticeship scheme this year, which is the first time for my team, the number of applications we had for one role was absolutely outstanding. It was unbelievable. And, you know, you sort of sit there and you think, wow, you know, there’s an appetite for this. And I think young people are really understanding the benefits of it. And a lot of people now are quite uncomfortable with the debt because it, you know, it’s it grows rather than gets paid off in a lot of circumstances, despite people, you know, monthly payments and all the rest of it. But those roles and apprenticeships just there aren’t enough of them, and and it is a a problem that we have. And I I can see why, because apprentices take a lot of time, a lot of commitment, and a lot of experience and knowledge sharing, but you get the benefits back as an employer that you know, you can’t take 15 on. You might only be able to take one on. And that that’s the challenge that we’ve got in the industry of how do we deliver more apprenticeships to help bring in more people, really.

Nina Young: 14:00
I’ve heard this before. So I’ve spoken to some other firms which have said exactly the same thing, where they’re they’ve run an apprenticeship and they have just been absolutely bombarded with applications. There is the demand. And I always wonder why, what are the reasons? And I I do think there’s maybe was a stigma. I do think that’s got better, but I also think some of it’s to do with the investment required and the time commitment, perhaps. But I think it’s also educating and making aware the benefits of taking on apprentice.

Annabel Huffer: 14:30
Yeah, and I mean there’s there’s a lot of government grants that are available for businesses depending on what type of apprentice you take. You know, there’s all sorts of things out there. And for a lot of small businesses, they don’t necessarily know it exists, or if they do know it’s, you know, a bit of a minefield to try and work out what you can take and what grants might be available to you. And I think certainly for small businesses, especially in the property industry, there are so many of them that if there was more awareness and, you know, more assistance available to you as businesses to take them on, they might A, feel more comfortable and B, actually, you know, some of that monetary value which is required up front in terms of taking on the apprentice and the time spent in teaching them, actually, there are things available to assist. And I do know that it’s there’s something that I’ve spoken to the RSCS about. And I know that they’re, you know, always looking into ways of of helping SMEs more. And I think that is one way that may potentially assist with bringing on more apprentices, really.

Nina Young: 15:27
I think that’s a really good point about the grants. That’s something I’ve I’ve heard about this year, is thinking there’s been more grants available for apprenticeships. So, Matrix. So you’ve been the chair of Matrix since the first of June. I have. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So what um the whole four months indeed, but uh yeah, I bet you it still kept you busy. Um what sort of drew you to the to the role?

Annabel Huffer: 15:54
It’s actually been something I’ve I’ve wanted for a very long time. I first got involved with Matrix in 2020, I believe. Um, and you know, Matrix across the UK after COVID, it’s a networking event. During COVID, that just wasn’t possible. So a lot of the committees across the UK kind of had to build it from the ground back up again. It’s been a fantastic journey for me. I first started on a local committee down in Hampshire. I stepped up to vice chair after sort of a year or so there. And then I carried on through, did my APC, um, and then a board position opened up with three others and we we joined the board. Four of us joined at once. Um, and for me, I mean, goodness, I was I was terrified. I was sort of what for my first meeting, I thought, my goodness, I’m in this room full of incredible people who have all, you know, been on this board for so long and they’re all so experienced and they all hold such senior roles. And there was sort of me from Hampshire who hadn’t long finished her apprenticeship and hadn’t long been chartered. And it was just fantastic. They are the friendliest bunch of people on the board, and and everyone’s so passionate about helping others. Um, and so I joined the board in 2024, it was November, and I sort of knew that you know the chair role does come up periodically. Historically, it’s only been held for one year. For me, um, I’m the first chair that will will hold it for two years confirmed and then hand it on to somebody else after that. And so, you know, I was very lucky that Neil, our previous chair, was brilliant and we got on very well. And he, you know, he gave opportunities to everyone on the board to understand more about what that chair role might involve, presidential inauguration, for example. And that was brilliant to be involved with. And so for me, Matrix has played such a massive part in my career as an apprentice, can be quite isolating. You haven’t got a cohort of students around you like a traditional university. And so I met people my age, my experience at Matrix. And so I’ve come through the scheme from being someone who’d never been to a networking event to now I sit on panels and I run these events, and it’s pretty exciting.

Annabel Huffer: 18:04
So that is as a bit of background. So Matrix is for anyone who is a student on an RICS accredited course, um, right the way through to someone who is 10 years post-qualified. So that covers the candidates, the graduates, the apprentices, the newly qualified, the not so newly qualified who’ve kind of been around for five years, right the way up to 10 years post-qualification. So we we have a very large membership and 23 and a half people, 23 and a half thousand people. And it’s just, you know, it’s a fantastic network. We’ve got 29 committees across the UK at the moment, and that number is growing every year. So you does that mean that you’re expanding out to different regions then?

Nina Young: 18:48
Okay.

Annabel Huffer: 18:48
Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, historically, I think I mean Matrix very, very long time ago, was the junior organization and it it rebranded to Matrix in 2003. And since then, you know, committees pop up all over the place. So, yes, we have 29 committees across the UK, and we are always looking for new places to help support the next generation of surveyors, whether that be, you know, whether it’s potentially quite a big student community on RACS courses, or whether it’s, you know, a few a few towns that have got surveying firms in them, because obviously the closer a committee is, the more likely people are to attend. But we also have to ensure that that committee is going to be a success and it will be able to represent the Matrix and RACS brand through the events that we put on. All of our committees are run by volunteers. We typically have around 10 people per committee. So that is, you know, 290 people that volunteer their time to Matrix across the UK. And that doesn’t include the board or our regional chairs. And the best thing that I have found about Matrix is that every person who’s involved is the friendliest, the most passionate, and they just want to help other people. And that’s why I just love Matrix so much and why I absolutely, you know, have worked towards being the chair of Matrix UK. Because I, you know, that group of people, you just I don’t know where else it exists. I I’m sure it does. But from what I’ve seen of them, they are all just fabulous people. And the time that they give to it as well, you know, especially at the start of your career, you are beholden to earning the fees, doing really well at work technically, learning the trade. And actually to then take something on alongside that can be a challenge because you need your employer’s support, and not all of them are supportive, and some of them use annual leave to help with it because they just want to be part of something fantastic. And and you know, we do understand that that a lot of our committees are going through the APC and potentially getting chartered, and that needs to take priority, and yet we still have these committees that run events, and we have run hundreds of events this year. I’ve noticed, I’ve noticed an increase in events. It’s gone up, and I mean, a few years ago we we had more events, but the emphasis over the last year or so has been the quality of the events that we put on. And and in some of our events, we’ve we’ve had 120 people at a barbecue in in Wales, but and then some of them in some of the smaller areas, we might get 30 at a successful event. But that could be, you know, a beach volleyball on the beach down in Brighton, or we might have a golf event somewhere else, or we might have a speed networking event. And so the rain, there’s a huge range there, and the reason for that really is because we want to make it accessible to as many people as possible. And you know, for some people, a certain event might not fit what they want to do. You know, I would love to play golf, but I haven’t quite yet learnt. And so a golf event for me, just I I wouldn’t attend because I would be too intimidated. Yeah. But actually, you know, if there’s a speed networking or a speed mentoring event. Or something, you know, a Christmas wreath making workshop, which we’ve got one for London going on in December. If anyone’s interested, you know, that sounds fantastic. And so we’ve got such a range of activities that are there. And it’s a it’s a fantastic thing to be a part of.

Nina Young: 22:15
Yeah, I can see how much you love doing what you’re doing. It definitely comes across.

Annabel Huffer: 22:21
Yeah, and I’m quite talk so much about that. So apologies, but it is fantastic. And any odd listening who you know thinks it might not be for them or they’re too scared to go, please go because the chairs are super friendly, the committees are super friendly. And actually, if you message someone and say, look, I’m coming along for the first time, I don’t know anyone, they’ll look out for you. And they’ll, you know, you’ll walk through the door and there’ll be a friendly face there to greet you and introduce you to some people, then you’re away. And that’s you then integrated into Matrix. And that’s why it’s so fantastic.

Nina Young: 22:52
I have come across many involved with Matrix, and I’m actually at an event next week with Matrix. I think that’s Bristol speaking, speaking there. And you’re right, they are extremely, and I think anyone that gives up their time when they’re already busy, busy professionals, to volunteer their time, to organise these things, bring people together, they’re gonna be a certain kind of person. Also, I think you cannot underestimate the world we’re in now, you know, the isolation, everyone’s stuck to the phones, the ability to go out and meet people like-minded that are doing the same things you do at face-to-face events, I think is gonna become increasingly more important, I think, in the world generally. I mean, I’m not intending as to talk about anything about AI and tech, but uh what I what I do know is that the expectations are that anything in person is becoming increasingly more important because I think we need it, don’t we? We need it face to face. And people need to feel they’re part of something. And I think, you know, like you say, people can be in all sorts of areas and regions, some of them quite remote, but if they’ve got the opportunity to meet with people just for an evening and then strike up a conversation, have a connection,

Nina Young: 24:04
and then you’ve got someone you can talk to, and then maybe you’re what’s upping later. I mean, you can’t beat that.

Annabel Huffer: 24:09
No, you can’t. And and I think that is the absolute benefit of Matrix, really. And I also think for, you know, I I came from an SME um when I did my apprenticeship, and you know, that was how I got out and met people and then got my APC support alongside what I was being offered at work. And and I do think if you’re in a smaller business, I think that networking is is almost more important because you that’s how you win your business. And you know, if if you’re someone who’s gone out and you’ve you’ve managed to win some business, then actually you’re only a year into your career. I mean, that looks fantastic, really. It’s it’s a brilliant thing to be a part of. And we have such a an active and passionate board for Matrix as well. And we’re we’re working on all sorts of different initiatives to try and help our Matrix committee members to reward them for their voluntary time and make it, you know, it’s a great thing to have on your CV and you get the warm and fuzzy feeling for helping people. But actually, we we recognise that it’s not easy for everyone early in their careers to give up their time for it. And so we’ve introduced quite a few different initiatives at board level to help the committees learn soft skills for future leadership a lot faster than potentially they may otherwise learn. So they’re getting support to do. Yes. Yeah, we we’ve had a budget this year for a new initiative which we’ve called the Matrix Academy. And each month we run a new academy session which is focused on a soft skill. So this month we had how to manage people. We’ve had, you know, how to have difficult conversation training, time efficiency, stress management, all things that are actually really important when you start your career that you will carry with you through the rest. And we are looking at our program for next year to try and do that. But we’ve actually invested in bringing in external providers who are specialists and experts in these areas to try and give back to our matrix committees and to say thank you for everything that you do because actually it can have a profound impact in someone’s career. And and I would like to think that I I’m always sort of living proof of that that I’ve had through it has just been absolutely phenomenal.

Nina Young: 26:12
Yeah, and I I I think it’s one of my one of my phrases is it’s not not just what you know, it’s who you know. And you can’t, there’s so much value in that. It could be the most amazing knowledge, technical, etc. etc. But if there’s something everyone knows something they don’t know, or something they need to ask, or support on something, you need to know that there’s people there you can reach out to.

Annabel Huffer: 26:35
You do. And and I think the thing that has always resonated with me is that the people that you know you’re meeting now at the start of your careers, you know, in 15 years’ time, you might might well be a partner at a firm and they might be a partner at another firm. And by then, if you’ve cultivated that relationship and you’ve you’ve met them regularly, you know, that’s a 15-year relationship. So if you need, you know, a solicitor to help with something, or you know, you want to refer some work on, that’s a really good connection to have. And, you know, you can know them and trust them and you understand how they work. And that’s how business works. And so, you know, a lot of people I don’t necessarily think can see the positive parts of networking very early on, because you can’t necessarily win business off another graduate because they’re not in that decision-making role. But actually, in five or ten years’ time, they will be, and you don’t know where you’re going to end up. And and those people will rise up through the ranks with you as well. And and you can celebrate each other for that. And you might end up working in the same firm of them or you know, going in a separate path, but you can rely on each other, having had that relationship with them for quite so many years.

Nina Young: 27:42
Where should we direct people to to find out more about you know the matrix, the events, this kind of thing?

Annabel Huffer: 27:50
The RACS website has a matrix dedicated landing page, and that has a direct link across to matrix-specific website and yeah, events. The other best place is on LinkedIn. Um, we have six regional pages. So we matrix is split into six regions. Um, we’ve, you know, for example, there’s the London and South East page, there’s, you know, North of England page, and on there, all of the committees in that region post their events. And so if you’re in that region, follow that page and you will get directed to their events. The pages are really, really active. Um, and we’ve got over 14,000 followers across all the pages. And they are the best place for you to find the events that are local to you. Okay. Book a ticket, come along. If, as I said, if you don’t know anyone, message the chair that might have posted it and you’ll be able to, you know, have somebody that will meet you when you walk in the door. So it’s not quite so scary.

Nina Young: 28:42
Okay, well, we’ll include those

Nina Young: 28:43
notes to um links, should I say, to all those we do. Thank you. I have I have seen them on LinkedIn, so I just wanted to double check where we send people to. One of the things we touched upon before we started recording was we discussed a few things. One was around the balance of women in surveying. And I think I’d like, I would like your perspective on this being highly successful in your career as a woman and your experiences throughout the years. Are you seeing sort of with the the gender balance, are you seeing an increase in more women coming in generally? Or I think so.

Annabel Huffer: 29:18
I’d like to think so as well. We certainly, at my previous firm, um, I think we had one other female surveyor. Um, and you know, looking back on that firm now, they’re a much bigger firm now because they were acquired by another business, but there are a lot more female surveyors there. And when I moved tonight, Frank, I’d never really worked with, especially in building surveying, I’d never seen a female partner, really, or a female associate. Um, I think we we previously had one at my old firm. And and so for me, I I came in, I thought, my goodness, this is this is really bizarre. And how wonderful, you know, I’ve got all these amazing females that I can look up to. I think that’s that has been changing very slowly, but I I think it takes time for these things to change because you know, I’m a very firm believer in not just pointing someone to a role to fill a quota. It’s got to be the right person for the right job. Um, and you know, I I wouldn’t like to see a woman in a position of power just because she’s a woman. Yeah, I want I want to see people who are good at what they do. Yeah. Um, and luckily the the partners I’ve come across and the directors at my previous firm who were female were very good at what they did and they were very deserving of those roles. But in order for it to really change, you’ve got to give it the time to filter through. We have just taken on a family graduates who started with us in the last month. We have quite a few female graduates within my Billings Main team specifically, which is fantastic to see. And so I think people are starting to come through, but obviously they aren’t necessarily going to be in partner positions for a very good number of years yet because they’re right at the start of their career. And so, yes, I do think it’s changing. I do think there is a lot more work to be done just for diversity in general, across the board, whether that’s gender or or any anything else. We need to make it seem like an accessible and welcoming profession that is supportive

Annabel Huffer: 31:07
of women, but also all of these other types of value.

Nina Young: 31:11
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, totally. And I think uh it also starts with it goes back to the the the first part is getting that awareness out there of surveying as a career.

unknown: 31:21
Yes.

Nina Young: 31:22
And then making it accessible to everybody. Yes. You need people to be aware of it, it exists. That’s kind of one of the things I, you know, with this podcast and other things I do. I’m very passionate about that because I I just think surveying is just an absolutely incredibly diverse profession in the sense of, when I say diverse, in the sense of the incredible areas you can go into. You could work, you could get involved with literally a nuclear power station, a wind farm, hydrographic surveying, you know, surveying the seabed, you know, working on the St. Paul’s Cathedral. I mean, it’s just immense. And I think everyone needs to know about it, you know.

Annabel Huffer: 32:02
Yeah. Every single thing we interact with has been touched by a surveyor in way. And, you know, that they are hugely diverse communities that we serve because it it’s every single person on planet Earth. And therefore, you know, we need those people to be in the industry to help make those decisions. And I think it it’s not only getting the awareness out about it being a career, but that it is accessible to anyone, regardless of their background and how they may have been brought up, or, you know, what career they’ve previously had, whether they’re coming in later in life. You know, there is always a role there for everyone. And it’s a hugely fascinating, hugely rewarding career and industry to be in. And I can only speak from building surveying perspective, but as you’ve listed, you know, there are hundreds of different types of surveyors, but there’s many, many RSCS pathways that you can go down. And, you know, that will suit a whole range of different people. And so for me, I think the challenge of if we if we focus specifically on young people is you know, most people have an interaction with a surveyor during a very stressful time of their life when they’re buying a house, for example.

Nina Young: 33:08
Yes.

Annabel Huffer: 33:08
That doesn’t make the career look fun. It doesn’t make the career. That’s a really good point. No, we’ve never made that point before. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a very difficult time when you buy a house. And so, you know, if you we go into the schools and we say to the children, you know, it’s a fantastic career. They go home and they go, Oh, I’ve had this amazing thing and I I want to go and be a surveyor. And the parents may go, Why would you want to do that? Because they they only have a very small knowledge about it. And so the way that I approach it, and I’ve spoken to the RSCS about this a lot, and you know, we’ve we’ve talked about how we can work through it, is we don’t just need to speak to children, we need to speak to the career advisors too, but actually it’s the parents because parents have a massive impact on what careers children can choose. And I I was on a, I think it was a panel event last year, and somebody came from a very traditional family that everyone was a doctor, and he actually wanted to go and be an engineer, and so he went on an apprenticeship route for engineering. And his parents said, Why would you want to do that? You know, it’s you know, it’s engineering, but that’s extraordinary. And and he sort of said, Yeah, but you know, I can be a chartered engineer and I can come out at the end of it, or you know, I’ll be fully qualified. And they didn’t understand that. And I know that that is different to surveying, but there are still, you know, parents can be very, very influential on that. And you know, if he hadn’t really, really wanted to done do it and driven it himself, he might have been swayed by his parents. And, you know, we then wouldn’t have such a fantastic childhood engineer in the industry. And and that’s the way it goes. And so, you know, I think the awareness is is at school level, but it’s it’s educating parents and visibility generally. And the ISS is doing a brilliant job with the TikToks, the LinkedIn, social media. I know that there are talks with the government about how we push it out, but I think it also needs to be industry-wide, it needs to be with the architects, the engineers, the planners and and come out as a wholesome collective. Yes. The whole industry’s got a shortage, whether you’re a surveyor or a planner or an architect. And so, you know, if we all work together, we might lose a couple of surveyors to a planning role or an architectural firm. But actually, you know, we can’t do our jobs without them, and they can’t do their jobs without us. And so if there’s a shortage across the whole industry, you know, that makes life very difficult for us into the future. That’s very my stall. You that’s very good.

Nina Young: 35:28
I like the stall you put out there. Um especially, especially that’s like, I’m not gonna forget, I’m gonna I’ll end up doing a post on this, Annabelle. That’s about on LinkedIn, about the majority of people’s interactions with the surveyor is when they’re buying selling a house. Yeah.

Annabel Huffer: 35:46
And unless you impact unless you’re in an investment firm or you work with a surveyor, you know, a lot of the population don’t have any interaction with us. And so they don’t understand, you know, it’s a fantastic industry. You get great qualifications, you can earn a lot of money. People just don’t understand it because it, you know, it’s not glamorous like being a lawyer in suits or Grey’s Anatomy being a doctor. It there aren’t there aren’t TV shows out there about being a surveyor. I once looked into that.

Nina Young: 36:13
I think there was there’s been a couple of sort of clips where surveyors featured in a program. I did look into that once. Is there anything about that? No, there’s nothing out there, is there?

Annabel Huffer: 36:23
The closest we get is is sort of the selling sunset, you know, with the estate agency, which is skin. Um, but again, that’s still a different career to being a surveyor. Um and I, you know, if if I was to draft one, I don’t even know where I would start because there are so many different types of surveyor that you would invariably miss one that’s just as important as all the others. And I I don’t even know what that would look like, but it’s not in the media in the same way that other career paths are. And I do think that’s a very real challenge that we have. Yes.

Nina Young: 36:53
So it’s I’m just thinking, I was just like thinking we need to get in touch with the BBC. We need a documentary.

Annabel Huffer: 36:59
We need something. And I think there have been some documentaries. Social media is the big thing. There’s yes, statistics that show that young people nowadays get a lot of career advice from TikTok. So they don’t go on Google or any other search engine, they will go to TikTok for their career advice. And that’s why I’m so pleased to see that the RSC assist doing that and doing a very, very good job of it showcasing all the different types of surveyors. Um and I do think that will help massively because if it’s out there and it’s you know being consumed regularly, it doesn’t come in as a curveball then. It just is out there and it’s something that people see as you can.

Nina Young: 37:33
It’s like sublim subliminal, isn’t it? You come across these things. Subconscious, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s just yeah, subconsciously, it’s just there because we don’t have that. And it’s it’s interesting how so many surveyors will either say, I fell into it as

Nina Young: 37:47
a role, as a profession, or my family, isn’t it?

Annabel Huffer: 37:51
Yeah, and unfortunately, I am in that Laser camp, but I’m trying to do my bit to you know make sure that I think you do emotion your bit, Annabelle. And you know what? Thank goodness I am in that camp because I may not have ever come across it. And I have a lot of gratitude to my family for introducing me to it because I’m hoping that I can use the platforms that I’m given to bring more people in. And actually, ultimately, you know, Claire Johnson said it to me once, one of our RACS market directors, when I mentioned we were taking on some new apprentices, she said, you know, that is somebody’s life that you’ve got in front of you. And you are changing that. And, you know, I don’t like to put the work that I do on too much of a pedestal, but ultimately, if if I have one conversation with someone and they choose to come into the industry, that could be life-changing for them because it it was for me that I chose to. I’m just, you know, grateful that it was my father who who helped me with that. But for somebody else, that is incredible. And that’s if I can do nothing else with my life other than that, I think I will be very happy with what I’ve achieved.

Nina Young: 38:52
I think you should be very happy with what you’ve achieved already. Already. You’re only just getting started. Well, exactly. I know I am. Yeah, we’ve got to see where that goes into the future. Absolutely. And I look forward to following where these things follow. We’ll love. We’ll have to have another podcast episode in a couple of years, and then it’d be like, now, now what is Annabelle doing?

Annabel Huffer: 39:12
That would be great. I mean, given that we spoke probably five years ago, and I was still an apprentice, very new, didn’t know very much then. Yeah. And here we are, full circle around. You know, these things do come around, and it it’s fantastic, you know, just to see even how your business has grown with it as well.

Nina Young: 39:28
So it’s just, I mean, the and the podcast as well. I think, like, like I shared before we started recording, it’s it’s up there with my favorite thing because it’s fascinating to hear the different backgrounds, like your background, what’s inspired, what you’re passionate about, and what I’m starting to hear more and more. So I’m I’m getting more feedback from listeners, and I’m hearing from people who are literally putting the podcast on ways because we’re on YouTube in their lounge, and the family has watched it with their children. Excellent. You know, all these and people at this at the gym, they’re walking the dog, and and it’s that kind of thing. And it’s and also interestingly, you know, so many listeners who are in a different area of surveying will be listening to this episode because a lot of surveyors are interested in what other surveyors do. Even if they have no intentions of moving across, there is a lot of interest across the board. And I love the fact that there’s a lot of commonality between the conversations I have with surveyors that, you know, especially like the importance of communication, soft skills. It’s one of the things that’s not said enough. Before we end today, is there anything else that you would I always ask, anything else you you’d like to add? I don’t think so.

Annabel Huffer: 40:39
No, I I just I’m very grateful for you inviting me on to say thank you. And it is brilliant to be able to talk about things that I’m so passionate about. And I just hope that you know, someone who’s been considering getting involved in the industry or you know, having a career conversation or joining Matrix if they’re already in the industry, just feels, you know, actually, this is a place for me. And that, you know, they can go and explore it and enjoy the industry and see what’s out there for them because it’s fantastic. And the people I meet and everyone is so supportive, everyone wants to help everybody, is what I’ve found. It’s just a great place to be. So yeah, hopefully we’ve inspired somebody.

Nina Young: 41:16
Yeah, I think you certainly have. And I yeah, I highly recommend people join the The Matrix and and get get along to these events. And and I think I think you’re right. I think there’s a lot of massive impacts that you individuals such yourself have with the profession because people need to see what you can go on and do, and you’re in it you’re inspiring to to others and um and certainly to a lot of the listeners today. What I’ll do is, as always, I’ll include everything we’ve discussed today in the show notes as well so people can find out more. Get on LinkedIn, everybody, if you want to learn about matrix events. But thank you very much. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today, Annabelle. There’s a lot of things your passion is definitely coming through on the screen and through audio. Basti.

Annabel Huffer: 41:59
Well, thank you very much for the opportunity. I’ve I’ve really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: 42:01
So thanks for listening to this is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveyed UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.