92% of Buildings Are Overheating: Here’s What Surveyors Can Do

Speaker 1: 00:08
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This Is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Surveyors UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. Today’s guest is Dr. Samantha Organ. Samantha is an associate professor at the University of West England and is also a building surveyor with extensive experience across very varying disciplines. So without further ado, welcome Samantha. Thank you. You’re going to make me sound really old. No, I don’t want to make you sound old. Extensive experience. Oh, welcome. One of the things I would like to do though is explore sort of how did you get to where you are now, both as a building surveyor and as an

Speaker 1: 01:18
associate professor.

Speaker: 01:20
Oh gosh, that’s a long story. I’ll try and keep it short for your listeners’ sake. So I was at school. I’ll go back a bit further, actually. So when I was three years old, I was taken down to by my grandmother, walked down to a site in Cheltenham. It was my middle uncle, I’ve got three uncles on my mum’s side. I’m either lucky or unfortunate, I’m not sure which. And the middle one was having a massive extension on his Regency property put on. And he was project managing the work. My youngest uncle is a surveyor, and my father at the time was a carpenter. And they were all stood there on site, like a smell of sawdust as a three-year-old. My grandma was there, and we just stood on the edge. And I thought, this, this is what I want to do. And then I forgot about that. And fast forward to being 18 and needing to choose a subject for university, knew I wanted to go to university. No one in my immediate family had gone to university. Their relations had, but they hadn’t. And I didn’t know what to choose. I’d fallen out of love with my A-level subjects, and I just needed to decide. And I had a theory at the time that I’d got bored from with A-level because it wasn’t diverse enough.

Speaker 1: 02:31
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker: 02:32
So I was flicking through a prospectus one day and I’ve stumbled over building surveying, and it had all these subjects listed underneath. And I thought, oh, any subject, any degree with that many subjects sounds brilliant. So I went and I spoke to my youngest uncle. We’d never really spoken about surveying in my family. My grandma’s brothers were engineers, again, never spoken about it. Her father had been a master builder, again, never spoke about it. My grandma had done her own windows, like repairs, replacements, never spoke about it. And so when I spoke to my youngest uncle, he introduced me to a business affair and he said, they said, don’t do it. Right. And I said, why? And they said, one, you’re female and you’ll have a really hard time in the industry. True story. And the other is that you’ll you’ll graduate into a recession because it’s the industry is cyclical. And I don’t like being told not to do things just because of my gender, and never have done, even at school. So I spoke to my mum and to my grandma, and they they’ve always said, well, just go for it. If you want to do something, go and try it. So that was great to have that support. Whereas I know other people wouldn’t have necessarily had that support. And I spoke to went to University Open Days, and I still thought, oh God, this sounds so interesting. And so I decided to take a leap of faith and I jumped in. And for the first six months, I thought, oh my god, I’ve made a huge mistake. Because everybody on the course seemed to know what was going on, what they were doing. Their parents or their family members had been surveyors. And obviously I was going in fairly cold despite the connections at home. And I thought, well, I can either drop out or I can dig in. And I thought, well, if I drop out, what would I then do? And I thought, well, I I don’t actually know. And I don’t really want to go and just get a job until I figure that out. I could be forever. So I thought I’d lean in, and I did, and I loved it. I actually loved it. It was hard. Picked up work experience to try and get up to speed a little bit, as much work experience as I could, and whilst also trying to work as well to pay and pay my way. And then yeah, graduated. And I did graduate into a recession. They were absolutely right. But I didn’t have as hard a time as they suggested I would have being female. Because you just adapted, or because I adapted, but also you just get on with the job. And if you’re good, you can get on with it. And yes, I’m I’m very aware that there is a gender pay gap, there’s also the pension pay gap, there’s the authenticity gap. And so we are facing those issues, particularly when we get to more middle and leadership roles. So I’m not saying that they’re the industry’s perfect, but and we’ve all faced that, haven’t we? And and there were times where I’ve been told, no, you can’t go to this particular site because it’s not safe for you. But I’ve had I’ve had come across much worse in academia, if I’ve got I’ve got to be honest. Really? That’s interesting. Okay. So actually, I think the industry is broadly quite supportive. It could be better, and that’s something that we all need to work on, and we all need allies. And it’s not a case of if you know about the authenticity gap, for example, we’re all part of that mix. So we all have a response. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1: 05:57
Can you explain that a bit more to me? The authenticity gap. Yeah.

Speaker: 06:00
Yeah. So there’s a great TED talk on it. So I and it’s only 12 minutes long, so I’d encourage anyone to listen to that. But effectively, it’s our culture where actually,

Speaker: 06:10
if a woman is talking, often we don’t listen. And we also oh we also assume that a man is competent until they prove otherwise, whereas a woman has to prove that they’re competent. I see. So it’s things like that, and that’s not anyone’s fault at all. It’s just the culture we have.

Speaker 1: 06:29
It’s not like built in, ingrained in how we grow up, it’s just their bias almost.

Speaker: 06:35
So I challenge anyone who’s listening, don’t take don’t don’t take my word for it. Actually, just sit back and observe in a few different situations whether you can actually spot it. I was quite shocked because I’ve only recently found out about the authenticity gap, sorry, authority gap. Actually, yeah, I was quite shocked. And then I thought, well, is this is this actually true? And so I spent a week just seeing if I could actually spot it. And yeah, I was quite quite surprised.

Speaker 1: 07:01
Do you think generally with the sort of the gender gap and the challenges in surveying throughout your career, has it improved? Would you say progress is is being made?

Speaker: 07:12
I think so. And others who might be more qualified and up to speed with the research might argue differently. I think there’s been a bit of a lapse since COVID, which is a great shame. And I think that it’s not about just gender. I think there are there’s more to it than that. But that doesn’t mean that we can sit back on our laurels. We need everyone at the table to push this forward and notice it because actually it does become a problem and it puts people off. And I’m sure you’ll be aware that we tend to lose women from surveying at the at the age of about 47. Yeah. That is the leaky pipeline. We can’t afford with an aging population and an aging profession, we can’t afford to lose any talent from this industry. We need everybody to help and to get on board. And we know that there are shortages of building surveyors in particular, but surveyors in general. So we need to do everything we can to retain that talent.

Speaker 1: 08:11
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think in the time I’ve been in the profession, which is six, seven years, I I have seen progress being made and I’ve seen many different attempts to make it better. Many, many fail because I think with anything like this, with a gender gap, you have to work with each other. Genders have to work together to tackle it. You can’t do it in isolation in one group. The support groups that are needed for women, absolutely, you know, I support all of that. But I think with events and things, you need men to be the allies, the ambassadors, the support it, the calling. I think that’s the biggest thing. It’s calling things out when it happens, isn’t it?

Speaker: 08:53
And it can be really simple things to show support. So for as an example, if you are at a meeting and somebody’s a bit nervous about speaking, you know that they’re going to make a good point. I mean, I’ve been at meetings where I’ve been talked over. And we’ve all been in those positions, regardless of gender. But actually, it takes somebody in a in a slightly more senior role to go, actually, Sam, that’s a great idea. Could you expand on that? And it just gives you that little bit of confidence and also to show that somebody’s worth listening to, so that we all take a breath as well, and show each other respect. And, you know, as surveyors, we comply with our codes of conduct and things like that. So and that all goes back to that as well. So why wouldn’t we? And just so it’s just showing the little micro bits of of I’m gonna call them boosts, the little micro boosts to more people, so then it is actually a bit more equitable.

Speaker 1: 09:45
And also, I always find that the not that it’s it’s not always the loudest people in the room that have the best things to say. Yes. Usually. So I think encouraging that is, like you say, is is a really good point, no matter who it is, you know, male or female, I don’t think it matters. So one of the things we touched upon before we started was around the sort of your sort of varied experience across building surveying. So tell us a bit more about the areas that you’re involved with and and and why you’re involved with them and what is it about them that you enjoy?

Speaker: 10:21
So, yes, so I have quite an unusual career, I’d say. I mean, I did my internship

Speaker: 10:25
in America, and that that probably uh springboarded me into a more unusual career trajectory. And so I I became an academic associate professor, and you asked earlier how I got into that. Well, I’d been an academic for a while, a number of years, and then went part-time and joined the National Trust part-time. And so to get to the associate professor, I needed to meet multiple. And when I say multiple, I’m talking about about 32 different criteria to get that promotion. So that took some time to develop, and I had some great support from an internal mentor, another female professor called Danny, Danny Sinnet, who’s amazing. Look, do look her up. So, in terms of my career, I suppose I fell into academia because, as I said, I graduated into a recession, did some fixed-term contracts as a surveyor, and the university offered me a longer fixed-term contract to do research. Didn’t really know much about research other than what I did for my undergraduate dissertation, like most of us. And so, as part of that, I undertook some master’s modules to get up to speed with how to do research better. And as part of that, I then moved on. I suddenly realized that I could do a PhD. So I signed up to do a PhD part-time. Uh, and I worked through that for four and a half years. What was it you did? What was your area? Uh so the actual title was Owner Occupier Motivations for Energy Efficiency Refurbishment.

Speaker 1: 11:50
Oh.

Speaker: 11:51
So a bit of a tongue twister, takes practice, but effectively looking at why you’d put more loft insulation in your loft or put solar panels on your roof. And well, the way I did it was I approached it from a social science perspective, but bringing in building surveying. So again, quite unusual. So I went around people’s houses who were in the study, and I did a little survey as well as interviewing and using a questionnaire. And that was part of a case study, a case study design, we would call it. So I often, and I’ve been thinking about this a lot today for some reason, but I often get told by students, oh, but research isn’t really build and surveying. And you go, well, actually, research is build and surveying because you need good project management skills, good social skills to interact with whoever you’re working with, a bit like with clients or with contractors, but it’s that sort of project management and phasing, which is necessary.

Speaker 1: 12:45
Isn’t there also that curious mind and questioning mindset that surveyors have?

Speaker: 12:49
And the critical reflection, yeah, and the ability to say collect collect data. So you do your desk based, so that’s your in literature review.

Speaker 1: 12:58
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 12:59
Then you’ve got your primary data collection. So you’re going out on site, collecting information, and then you’re writing up a report, effectively. You’re analyzing it, obviously, analysing and then writing up. So actually, there are more parallels than people think, really.

Speaker 1: 13:13
There are actually quite a few.

Speaker: 13:14
Yeah, exactly. And just being really rigorous, and there’s ethics involved, and we follow professional ethics. So there’s a lot of overlap. So effectively, that’s that’s that’s a lot of the skills that I developed during the PhD, as well as sort of enhancing that in industry as well. So I decided I then towards the end of that secured a more permanent role as a senior lecturer. And then after um, after that, I went part-time, went into industry, joined the National Trust part-time, and I was there as a business surveyor, then I was promoted to senior business surveyor, and then I was promoted to the directorate. So I was head of Skills and Crafts for a couple of years, and then I was moved across in the same team to senior building asset manager for sustainability. And then I decided I needed a bit of a stretch, a bit of a change to shake things up. So I went into private consultancy for 16 months and all the while still working in academia. And then I set up my own business about a month ago, maybe six weeks ago.

Speaker 1: 14:17
Right. So it’s all led to this, hasn’t it? It has. All the experience and background. I think that’s the thing. You bring all those skills together and then you go out on your own. Exactly. Because you’re armed with everything you need. With regards to academia and building surveying in general, do we need more surveyors in academia? Do you think?

Speaker: 14:36
That’s a really good question. I think that when you say in academia, do you mean teaching or researching or both?

Speaker 1: 14:45
I guess both. I I was thinking about across the spectrum.

Speaker: 14:49
Yeah. So I I know I know some really great academics who started life as villain surveyors, and they’re brilliant. There’s Kate Simpson and John Littlewood, who both spring to mind at two different universities, Nottingham Trent, and John’s at Cardiff Med. And of course, I’ve got we’ve we’ve got them at UI as well, including myself. And I do think that we make excellent academics because we have that ability to critically analyse it at quite a deep level. Whether we need them or not is another question. And I think for me, I really like doing the two practice and academia, because I can bring my practice into the classroom, but I can also bring the classroom what I’m sort of whether I’m researching and those fresh ideas into my practice. I can also see what’s coming down the line in terms of research. So what’s being asked for as part of research bids, whether that’s in the UK, whether that’s more wide in Europe or internationally. And so all of that informs some of my thinking that I can then bring to the benefit benefit of my clients. But I try to make sure that it’s practical.

Speaker 1: 15:56
Yes. But I can also see how powerful I think there’s something so powerful about being and practicing surveyor in academia, because when you’re in front of students and you can bring things to actually to life, yeah, from a personal experience, this is how I had dealt with this, or this is an example of this. Yes. You can’t beat that, I don’t think.

Speaker: 16:16
No, no, and I don’t know about you, but actually, the the typically the lecturers I had, whether I was an undergraduate who had that practical experience and were current, were the ones that did bring it to life the best.

Speaker 1: 16:31
That’s a really good point. Because you I can remember it, uni, I can remember those that were definitely weren’t current.

Speaker: 16:37
And then it’s not to say that they’re that they can’t teach. No, of course. I think some of the lectures I’ve had, they have been more career academics, and that’s okay. And then those who haven’t been in practicing for a long time, but then actually there’s a place for all of them. And I think just those people who are current bring a different

Speaker: 16:55
facet.

Speaker 1: 16:56
Okay, so then flipping this on the other side, you know, with regards to do we have enough new entrants into building surveying?

Speaker: 17:04
Into we don’t. We don’t. I’m getting knocks on the door constantly from um companies asking for business surveying grads or those who are newly qualified, and we just don’t have enough to fill the roles we’re being asked for, which is a positive place to be, but it what it is doing, Nina, is I’m seeing that that’s having an impact on the salaries. So business surveying in particular has been fairly lower paid in comparison to some of the other surveying professions traditionally, and actually that’s now starting to come up a little bit, and I think that’s possibly because of supply and demand.

Speaker 1: 17:37
Yeah, that yeah, that makes total sense. Absolutely. In fact, we only recently had on the the podcast Roger Dunning, who is has been a recruiter in building surveying space for about 20 over 20 years. And some of the things he’d mentioned to me on some other discussions were exactly that. And the skills and the but the shortage is is it’s very much candidate-led at the moment. So candidates are in demand, so they can therefore negotiate and demand the salaries more because then we should be able to do that.

Speaker: 18:07
Which is really positive. Which is really, really positive. And and when I first graduated, I negotiated a really good salary because I knew that they couldn’t fill the particular it was a fixed-term contract, and I knew they couldn’t they couldn’t fill it. They tried. So that left me in a really strong position because I was coming to it with experience that I’d gained in my internship and all that work experience I’d done. So I wasn’t just a graduate. So it is it is important, but equally, I think there is a misconception amongst school leavers and or college leavers about what a building sphere is. And I think, particularly with their support network, they they they think that it’s going to be a dirty career. It doesn’t have to be a dirty career. I see that as the benefit of getting mud on me or whatever it might be, going out on sight or or brushing cobwebs off me. Because I enjo I enjoy it. Um, but equally, you you can you can be surveying all sorts of buildings where no mud is required.

Speaker 1: 19:00
No, no, absolutely. You could do go go and do snagging on new builds if you want to. Exactly. Something for everyone. Yeah, something for everyone. So, with regards to, I know you do a lot of work in the heritage sustainability, but heritage in particular, because that’s one of the areas that I personally love in surveying. Can you give me examples of sort of any particular buildings or any projects that you’ve been involved with that really stand out for you that? You know, why why it’s so good and so interesting, you know, what you do within building surveying and the heritage sector.

Speaker: 19:35
Yeah, so the I I suppose the thing to say also, you know, that I often hear surveyors go, Oh, but I don’t need to be, I don’t need to worry about heritage because I don’t do that. You go, well, actually, a fifth of our housing stock is pre-1919 and a third of our commer non-domestic stock is pre-1919 construction. So inevitably you will work on some degree of heritage. It doesn’t matter but then not designated, it’s the the concepts are the same. So we in this country will touch heritage at some point. In terms of my experience, so I’ve worked on more recently St. Paul’s Cathedral, for example. So that’s a biggie, but doesn’t have to be big. So one of the proudest ones I’ve ever done, which I often referred to, whether that’s on podcasts or in in class, is Hitchkit Manor Gardens, their chapel. And that was a listed building, really small, I was parachuted in when the project ran into problems. And because we found they found archaeology and the project had already started, but without a surveyor for various reasons. And it turned out that it was never really a chapel, but no one knew that. So it was unconsecrated, so they knew that, but they didn’t really know the history of it. And through that project, layers on layers were uncovered, and I mean layers metaphorically as well as literally, and it turned out to be formally a stable that uh the previous owner who left the property to the trust, he had had his war horses in there because he fought in the Boer War and then the first world war, where he was left on the battlefield for dead and he was alive. Um, and so in the 30s, he decided to convert it to a chapel, as you do. And discovering all those layers and all the different materials and all of that sort of thing, but still being able to refurbish that building and still have that building tell a story was super exciting and super interesting. Um so it doesn’t have to be a big, exciting project, it can be something as simple as a refurbishment of what you think is a chapel, or even replacing the thatch on a thatched cottage which is listed, and discover that actually there are more defects than you think you’re gonna have, and actually finding a really easy sol easy solution that no one’s really thought of that resolves not only the defects in that building, but the neighbouring building. So it’s those sorts of little things where you go, yeah, I’ve made quite a big impact by doing very little. And that’s exciting.

Speaker 1: 22:09
Is it I always one of the things that really fascinates me is the intersection between like our social history and cultures and the built environment and how that shapes things. I love that. You know, one of the things I’ve I’ve done for quite a while was the Diginoposts on on through LinkedIn. Yes, only one of them recently was about the the ancient lights and the rights to light. And and it’s amazing how many people didn’t know about that. And I just think it’s fascinating that we have these things, you know, like the the window tax and the hearth or the fireplace tax that we had. And it’s just, I think those things, so much of it isn’t just literally the building, it’s how people have interacted.

Speaker: 22:50
Yeah, and I think as well, as human beings, we love a story. We we do. We we’ve kind of evolved around campfires and and things, and as social creatures telling stories, and that’s how we pass down poetry and and stories and all sorts for

Speaker: 23:05
centuries or millennia. So actually, we’re geared up for that. So actually, as a building surveyor, you kind of go, but why is that like that? And why is that that way? And and you kind of start uncovering that almost social and physical story in in tandem, which is fascinating, absolutely fascinating. And the way I I remember the chapel is is because I I understand how the sites evolved as well, because that was one of my properties when I was a building surveyor at the at the trust. So immediately it becomes part of that wider tapestry of of of the story of the of the estate, which is is fascinating.

Speaker 1: 23:44
It’s true that people love a story. I mean, ever since I was very young, I was always going to national trust properties. It was one of my favourite things and still is. Well, I mean, I love stately homes. That’s my my thing. And I’ve I’m fortunate to have um Castle Howard down the road from me, which is absolutely beautiful. But it is it is that when you even go to these, visit these places through National Trust or English Heritage and things, they they always have these plaques on there, which tends to be about the stories of the building and how it’s evolved over the years, and why why is that room there now? And why wasn’t this there then? And why has that disappeared? I think that’s that’s one of the things that I I find so fascinating and interesting about what surveyors do, that you interact with both. It’s yes, you have to interpret as well, like building to people in a way that they get.

Speaker: 24:33
And you’re also part of that story. So that building is constantly going to evolve and it’s evolved throughout history. So that story that you’re learning, actually, you’re just on the next phase of that story, that next chapter. And so, actually, if you’re shaping that, even in a small sense, isn’t that exciting?

Speaker 1: 24:51
Yeah, because you can say, I did that, or I was part of that, or I I discovered that, because you know, things that you’ll discover are fascinating, and even things when you’re doing this like some surveyors have done inspections in lofts and they found like these things etched on a or the brick or the bricky literally just put their name in it, and it’s they’re like a hundred years old. Yes, really special, really special things. Sustainability. So, so tell me more about that and the work that you’ve done in in that space. Oh gosh.

Speaker: 25:20
So I believe conservation and sustainability are two sides of the same coin. Okay. And for me, I think the way we are starting to go is much more climate resilience. That’s my feeling anyway. I do believe that energy efficiency obviously is important, but sustainability is much broader than energy efficiency. And so I think with any building that’s built to last, it is inherently sustainable. It’s not about knocking it down and starting again. We’re we’re retaining as much embodied carbon as possible, as well as that social, if it’s a historic building, that’s social sustainability, that story. So for me, I it it’s more about looking at what’s right for a building. So whether that’s improving the energy efficiency, whether that’s making it more climate resilient. Most a lot of our properties, the the uh climate change committee have said that 92% of our buildings will overheat in the next century. So that’s that’s a lot. That’s a lot. So actually, if we can start adapting now, just doing small tweaks, whether that’s sort of shading or something else, then actually that’s going to be really important because we know that the mortality rate goes up massively during heat waves. Uh, there was an article in the FT last last weekend, I think it was, that talked about this very thing. I think it was on the front page. So it’s not uncommon knowledge. And yet I think because it feels too intangible, we forget to embed it. But actually, whether it’s a building survey and going, actually, we the the this building’s quite good when it comes to it didn’t feel hot during the heat wave or whatever it might be, or actually there was no rainwater harvesting system, whether it’s a rainwater butt or something more glamorous in the garden. And actually, you might need to think about that because of droughts moving forward. And so there’s the little things that you can even comment on, and then all going more widely and going, right, well, actually, what can we do to this building to actually make it more climate resilient, more energy efficient? Is there something we can do? How is it going to cope with um more intense rainfall but less less frequently? Are the rainwater goods okay? So it’s all of that, and also are we also thinking about things like the pests, they’re gonna be changing, so that are gonna impact our buildings. So as humidity changes and our climatic conditions change, what impact does that have on pests? What impact does that does that have on us with our health and safety? So are we thinking about what pests are we talking about, Samantha? Oh, we are. If you look at the research, yes, we’re gonna continue having the same sort of wood boring insects in all the different areas, but we’re likely to get some other ones as well that are starting to come into play. So with that’s types of termites and things like that. So there are their predictions at the moment, but are we able to identify them? That’s the question.

Speaker 1: 28:14
That’s really interesting. Is that because, like, for example, through wood, we it’s gonna be a drier environment?

Speaker: 28:21
Let’s just store is it the other way? The theory is that we might be facing uh greater humidity. Ah well, we’ve experienced that recently.

Speaker 1: 28:30
We have in the summer we’re having. It has been more humid than I I I don’t know the facts, but it feels like it’s been one of the most humid summers ever.

Speaker: 28:40
Yeah.

Speaker: 28:40
And so, what does that have in terms of an impact on our cyclical maintenance as well? Are we thinking about that? Is it every five years or is it going to be every three to four years? So there’s a lot that could be changing as surveyors, and are we ready for it? Are we observing any patterns already that we should be observing?

Speaker 1: 28:57
And informing as well with the future builds, you know, where these buildings are, where we’re building these developments.

Speaker: 29:04
Yes.

Speaker 1: 29:04
Not just regards to obviously floods, which we don’t do very well and haven’t done very well. But also, like you say, with regards to the positioning of magging of like north facing, south facing the windows and the walls, so less glass, maybe.

Speaker: 29:19
I don’t know if if that’s something that’s are we learning? Are we learning from the continent, for example? So you can go to some of the, for example, I I always use this example, but in Annecy, in France, which is close to um Switzerland, they the old town has been built up uh to enable shading certain times of day. And it’s just that historically that’s what they’ve done. They’ve got certain quite small opening windows in the old town in the old buildings, very thick walls, they’ve got shutters. And so you start going, well, actually, we have the knowledge, and we have the knowledge over here. We’ve been doing it for centuries as well. We just seem to have forgotten. And so, actually, are we needing to just revisit some of those techniques to think about how our newer buildings are going to be coping, rather than just purely going, right, let’s go for the air conditioning, which is energy intensive, cost to costly to run, and have has an environmental implication. Is there something we can do? Yes, we can do air conditioning as well, but can we mitigate that by building in a different way?

Speaker 1: 30:17
And one of the things I want to mention, because we touched on this in a previous conversation, was uh shutters.

Speaker: 30:22
Yes. Oh my god. I see them everywhere. And so I think it’s become a bit of a joke among some of my friends because I’m always pointing out shutters now, as well as Budleer, by the way. I’ve just started dating somebody, and and even he’s spotting out, spotting Budleer. Um Budleer, but just the shade of it. It’s everywhere.

Speaker 1: 30:41
I have a huge, huge one in my garden.

Speaker: 30:44
Oh no. I’ve just seen one down the road, actually. I’m gonna take a photo and put it on LinkedIn shortly. But they just get carried away. I mean, it’s it’s not too, you know, it’s not it’s I guess it’s one of the biggest, but it’s you can see them growing out of chimneys, out of parapet walls, all sorts. So if you look up, you start seeing and just look around, you’re likely at some point to see a budlier.

Speaker 1: 31:08
Ah, interesting. So kind of invasive.

Speaker: 31:10
Are they classed as invasive? I don’t know, I don’t think so. But yeah, it’s be it’s become a bit of a bug bet of mine to spotting them. But also I see a lot of sh shutters. And so we do have shutters. We’ve always had shutters in this country. It’s just that we may not be using them or they may have been taken out. So see if you can spot any when you’re walking.

Speaker 1: 31:30
Oh, I always do because I love them myself. Because I remember being, you know, when I’ve been in France, staying in France, and the shutters when it’s been hot. It’s incredible to keep a room cool.

Speaker: 31:39
Yes, exactly. And so rather than opening windows during the day, keep the heat out, close the windows, keep the curtains closed or your shutters closed. And then it’s actually at night time that you can open these. Obviously, there are security considerations at night time. But also, I mean, yeah, in the FT article that I read last weekend, it was talking about there’s an issue with tropical nights, which we’re not talking about here in the UK and and in Europe, but in the UK. So we’re likely to have more of an issue with tropical nights moving forward, which is when we should be cooling our buildings. If we can’t cool our buildings at night time, then what happens? And there’s a big implication for people’s health.

Speaker 1: 32:16
So the temper tropical means it’s temperature staying isn’t dropping, staying high. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I’ve only just applied this whole thing because I I actually did this, did this uh I actually asked on LinkedIn because I was having discussions with how to keep the house cool. Yeah. And one of my things I was always doing, because I love fresh air, yes, was keeping the doors open, windows open throughout the day. And then I was like, hang on a minute, it’s getting really hot. Yes. And someone’s like, Well, exactly as as you just said, you keep them open on night, and then as soon as literally what I’ve been doing only the last few weeks is going like walking outside patio doors. Oh, it’s warmer outside, shut them, yeah, shut the curve. They’ve literally just done that. Always shut the curtains and all of that, but it has worked.

Speaker: 33:02
Yes. Yeah, it’s it’s a miracle. But the idea, I mean, I walked past a church today and it had a sign outside saying this is a cool space, feel free to come in. And I think that’s also what we need to start thinking about. Uh, I’ve been having discussions um with a few people about okay, well, actually, if we’re thinking about the climate changing like this moving forward, what does that mean for our schools? So are there cool spaces within the school or on the within the grounds or or within the building? How do you create those and things like that? So these need to be fitted into people’s building portfolio strategies as well. It doesn’t have to be an immediate thing, but we can see actually there is an impact. It changed, it impacts on productivity, not just at school, but in office offices and other workplaces. I felt that by melting, yes. Yeah, so it has a big economic impact. So we need to start planning for it moving forward.

Speaker 1: 33:56
All the so many schools, I had some meetings that are cancelled because people were saying I can’t make the meeting because schools have closed because of the heat. Is there a set in temperature? Like what what who how do they decide on when it’s like should be closed?

Speaker: 34:11
I don’t know, but my thinking is well, actually, it doesn’t necessarily guarantee it’s gonna be cooler at home. Good point. So actually, sending children home, is that the right thing to do as well? So actually, there needs to be a bigger discussion. And the Department for Education are doing some work around this area, they have guidance as well. But are we having those conversations? Are we are we getting ready in our strategies and as asset managers or as portfolio managers and and and people who are overseeing at a higher level? Are we prepared?

Speaker 1: 34:43
It’s interesting. There seems to be a bit of a is there a bit of a, I don’t know if conflict’s the right word, between, you know, when I look at the whole retrofit industry and everything that’s happening there, and then you’ve got

Speaker 1: 34:55
this climate resilience, or we need to make our buildings more energy efficient. Can that really go against like overheating the building?

Speaker: 35:04
So this is where I might differ from other people. I think that you’ve got to sit down and kind of work out both uh in parallel, because actually there will be overlaps, which is good, and there might be some conflicts. So that’s where we have to go, right? Well, what are we gonna do? What is the best for the long term? What’s the long-term investment? Because it’s at the end of the day, it’s all an investment, whether it’s a house or whether it’s a school or something else. So sitting down and having that strategy rather than going, right, we’re just focusing on energy efficiency, actually doing all of it and going, right, which ones are the priority? Where can we do the cost savings in the terms of actual investment? So when do we need to have scaffolding? Let’s group the works together. But also, what conflicts and what actually complements? Is it let’s take that tree out because actually it’s taking out too much water because it’s going to be a drought, or is that tree providing something more such as shading and that natural air conditioning? Because trees are our natural air conditioners. So it’s that finding those trade-offs and those balances and going right, and then how do we, what are we doing first?

Speaker 1: 36:09
I see, I see. Because what one of the things that constraint to my mind is loft installation. Yes. And how obviously loft installation is important because then the the heat’s not, you know, it’s not escaping. Is that correct? It’s not, yeah.

Speaker: 36:23
Well, yeah, so insulation will slow the flow of heat or heat energy. So it it doesn’t prevent anything. But effectively, if that means that you’re keeping heat out of your build of your building, it’s preventing that heat going in at a higher rate. So the more insulation you’ve got, as long as you’re keeping it the heat, you’re slowing it down from moving in, your house should stay cool enough. But that also means that you need to think about ventilation, just as you would with cold in the winter. So it’s the same sort of principles, just making sure you’ve got the right ventilation and that’s working effectively. So are you testing that? How do you test it? And also you making sure that you’ve got no cold bridging at various points and how you’re managing that if you do have that. So it’s it’s got to be that holistic job.

Speaker 1: 37:09
It really is holistic, isn’t it? There are so many factors to take into account.

Speaker: 37:12
Yeah. And it’s lost as well. Like, and things like, right, we’re gonna install a heat pump. Okay, which heat pump are you gonna think about having one which you can reverse so it can do the cooling as well? Yes.

Speaker 1: 37:24
Never even thought about that. Well, that was a genius idea, isn’t it?

Speaker: 37:29
Both two in one, two for the press of one. And they can, but you’ve got to make sure you have the right system.

Speaker 1: 37:34
Oh, okay. I didn’t know that was the thing. Oh, that’s something for me to bear in mind in the future. So, with regards to going back to sort of the education side, one of the things I would like to ask you about, because uh we have talked about it before, is is around AI and its impacts or what you have experienced and what you are seeing. Um, can you share a bit more about that? Things that we’ve mentioned before.

Speaker: 37:59
Sure. So, first thing to say is that I’m not anti-AI and I do use it for very limited things. But what I’m seeing in the classroom is students are using it, and that can be beneficial for them in helping them develop things like strategy skills in terms of study study strategies and things like that. But I think the risk is when they over-rely on it and it impacts on their critical analysis skills and developing that, so it stumps it. And my concern is that I suppose that by relying on it so much that you’re not developing those skills is that you’re not coming out as a surveyor who is able to do that critical uh reflection in the same level. So it’s really important as surveyors to be able to use those critical thinking skills. You’re not going to go on site necessarily and be able to rely on AI for everything. No, you need to be able to use those deep reflective skills to analyze what’s actually happening. And yes, by all means, you can use AI to bounce ideas off, create templates and things like that, but they may not be quite right. And so that’s when experience comes in. To get that experience, you need to get into industry and get the actual hands on the tools and get the time as well. I don’t think with increasingly using AI, we are setting up the next generation to succeed.

Speaker 1: 39:28
I think that’s I would agree. I would agree with that definitely. I mean, I obviously do a lot in the sort of talking about AI across surveying and things, and I’m a heavy AI user and I have been for years. Um, but I I come at it from sort of in the middle, like I see the opportunities, but I see the risks, and I don’t see how, you know, when you do, no matter how you do it, how you heavily rely on AI through your education, going back to like when I was, you know, at uni, if I’d done that, I wouldn’t have those times where I’m sat there really, really trying to work some out, making my brain. Yes, and it’s rewiring, it’s remapping, it’s doing these things, isn’t it? And it’s building your brain, it’s building all these new connections and nodes, whatever they call them. Yes. And that’s because you’re you’re working at it. Yes. And then it’s almost like this is a very simple way of looking at it, is when like before the internet, you know, when you used to you’d be asked a question, you’d have to sit there and think, wouldn’t you? Yes. Now what people do, they at least they’re if they’ve got access to Google, they’ll go, oh, and they’ll go straight to Google. And we all do it. And everybody does that. And that’s like a one early simple example of how we rely on something else. You know, when I think about pub quizzes or quizzes, I like to do this. There’s a quiz. There’s a guy that does this quiz online who came out in COVID, and we like to do them now and again. No friends or nothing, just and it it makes us just use our brains. Yes. And I always think about that, that that kind of knowledge and information that you’ve kept because you haven’t just gone to Google or because then you’re not kept keeping it. You’re you just know where the source of the information is. That’s all you need to know. And I think with AI, it’s like a one step

Speaker 1: 41:05
further.

Speaker: 41:06
Yes, very much so. And I think it goes back to uh there’s um a book called Thinking Fast and Slow. And it is a lot of effort to do that deep thinking, that’s the slow thinking. It’s a bit like when you first learn to drive. When you first learn to drive, oh, it takes so much mental power, and the brain is a hungry organ, so it is exhausting, like anything when you’re learning it for the first time. And then when you become more experienced, it doesn’t take so much brain power and you almost autopilot some of it. And so that’s your your fast thinking, you’re you’re kind of um giving your subconscious some of the control. We need to get to that slow thinking to enable the fast thinking so that we autopilot some of the some of the stuff that we do, but in the in the nicest possible sense, autopilot, we still need to be able to do the thinking. Otherwise, how do we become good surveyors and experienced surveyors? And so I’m I’m I’m concerned, I suppose, that students are going to those easy, easy tools. By all means, still use AI to help you refine, refine things, but it’s not the solution we think it is.

Speaker 1: 42:19
No, and education’s such a difficult time because uh, well, it’s challenging because that’s where you’re so impressionable as well, and your brain’s still developing. I think your brain’s developing up until the age of early 20s.

Speaker: 42:31
Yes.

Speaker 1: 42:32
And it’s kind of if you’re not cognitively using it, and the easier because there was there was someone, someone I spoke to, and they were sharing, I think it was um this was Adrian Tagg, who is at University of Reading, lecturer and building sphere, and he was saying how one of the students had used AI and the citation, and he said, Have you read these? And they were like, I think they were a bit cagey. And he said, Because one of them is written in Italian.

Speaker: 43:00
That and that’s exactly it. Can you speak Italian? Yeah. And the thing is, I think that by doing the easy win all the time, your brain becomes lazy and goes, Well, I don’t need to rely on that. And the thing is, when we get into industry, the the current thinking is that courts will accept AI reports, but they will prioritize and put more weighting against those that are actually written by the surveyor. And so, do you really want to be able to say to a client, Oh, yeah, well, I use AI, but don’t worry, the courts will accept it. Or actually, this was written by me, therefore, the courts will definitely accept it and give more weighting to it.

Speaker 1: 43:41
Interesting. You have to be able to stand behind it and be able to explain it. It’s like explainability about what you’ve written.

Speaker: 43:48
Yes, exactly. But also and in terms of your own work, whether that’s as an academic writing a paper, whether that’s writing an article for the RCS, whether that’s writing an essay, you’re there to kind. Kind of find your own voice, and if you’re giving that across to AI to then help you make it better, then actually you’re not refining your voice, you’re creating a bog standard voice that is recognizable for very little other than it’s quite a mediocre thing. So, I mean, I’ve perfected my voice, and I continue to perfect my voice in my written style. And yes, okay, I might might ask AI to write, I’ve got to cut these words out, but I’m struggling. Can you help me? But it’s still my voice.

Speaker 1: 44:34
It’s still your voice, it’s still your opinion, it’s still your judgment. It’s still because I use it for I’m the same, I honed it down over years and for the articles I write, and because you can tell on the the A, so the AI content, the the usual X and Y. Well, it’s not this, but it’s

Speaker 1: 44:50
this. And M dashes everywhere. And there are so many. There was a one thing a few years back now. I posted something about spotting the M-dashes. And what I didn’t realise is the big strong reaction. I wasn’t you know, accusing or anything, but there were so many people that were like, Yes, well, I use M dashes and always have all my life. And I wasn’t saying it was a negative, I just said suddenly people that use AI, they’re suddenly using M-dashes, and I’ve never used them. It’s not something I’ve used, it just happens to not be. And then he was doing them early days on the early Chat GPT, and I’m like, stop writing this. I this is not how I work, this is how I write. I use it a lot heavily for the reflective. I use it for I will talk to it. Less, less type talking is the best. It’s the one thing I always say. Talk to it because you it’s much more natural, you’ll get a lot more value out of it. But now that they really are good at receiving talking, sort of um audio input. And and then it’ll come back, and then I critique it and I go back, and I have this constant two-way, it’s never off you go and write it and then I’m done. Yes, never. And it and I also you critique it. What have I missed? What could I have missed? Oh, I’m thinking this. And because I’ve trained it though on who I am and not to do this and not to do that, yes, it gets it. But if I just took a free one out of the box now, you would write me rubbish.

Speaker: 46:12
Exactly, exactly right. So I I don’t mind it being used. I don’t mind students using it to help them with their thinking skills and developing things and kicking the tyres. But I really think that it needs to be their own work that they’re writing.

Speaker 1: 46:30
Yes, yes, totally agree. I think um before we wrap up for today, I’ve got one last one last thing I’d like to sort of ask you. For those that are listening, we’ve got a a range of listeners, and I know we have a lot of uh students and also members of the public. What is it? What would you sort of recommend and why building surveying as a as a career?

Speaker: 46:51
So I’m slightly biased because I’m a building surveyor, but I think for me it’s the fact that no two days are the same, whether it’s being an academic building surveyor or whether there’s a practicing building survey, no two days of my life has been the same since I became a building surveyor. And I like variety. I like getting out. I don’t want to be sit sat behind a desk constantly. So there are days where I am behind a desk, fine, but I don’t want to be purely five days a week behind an office desk. That’s just not me. I decided that during my teens. So for me, it’s the variety, it’s the ability to get out on site or go to interesting places, it’s having a nosy around buildings that you wouldn’t necessarily be able to see. It’s making contacts with some amazing people. I’ve got so many amazing friends just because of working with them professionally and then that evolving, it’s meeting interesting clients.

Speaker 1: 47:45
I mean, what more could we do? What more could you want? I have to agree. I have to agree. I I do love building surveying. It’s the variety of it, it’s the amazing buildings that you get exposure to in building surveying. It’s like, you know.

Speaker: 48:00
And it’s the diversity. So you if you don’t like doing something, I mean, because of building surveying being so broad, you go, but I didn’t enjoy that, so I just won’t do it. And you can go into a totally different area. And that’s okay.

Speaker 1: 48:14
Well, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. And and as we said before, we could talk for hours, couldn’t we? Is there anything else

Speaker 1: 48:20
you want to share before we uh finish off for today? I don’t think so. I mean, that’s been so much fun. Thank you. I think I think we’ve covered some really good. What I’ve loved about our conversation is that we’ve covered such a broad spectrum of things across the board. Um, for me, it just always goes to show one of the reasons why I love surveying is because it’s so incredibly varied and diverse and and different. Everyone, like every building surveyor, um, for example, that’s been on the podcast so far, everyone has different stories, different perceptions. It’s not this is how it is, off you go. It’s so different. And um, it’s been a real pleasure to have you on today, and thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. It’s been great. Thank you for listening to This Is Surveying. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and supports the work we’re doing to raise awareness of the profession. You can also join the Surveying Room, the free and independent community from Surveys UK, bringing surveyors together, breaking down silos, and of course making surveying visible. Just head over to surveyors UK.com to learn more and join today. All the links discussed in today’s episode are included in the show notes.