Why People Not Technology Define Success in Surveying

Nina Young 00:09
Hello and welcome. You’re listening to This is Surveying, the podcast shining a light on the people, ideas, and stories shaping this incredible profession. I’m Nina Young, founder of Survey UK and the Surveying Room, the community bringing surveys together, breaking down silos, and making surveying visible. So for now, let’s dive into our latest episode. Hello everybody, and welcome to This Is Surveying. Today’s guest is Tom Bell. Tom is a board partner at Quantum Consulting, he is a fellow chartered quantity surveyor, the vice chair of QSI, UK and Ireland, and the chair of the RICS Construction PGB Group, which professional group panel, should I say, PGP, I will get it right, Tom. So that’s quite a few things I’ve just reeled off there. But welcome, Tom. Great to have you on here today.

Tom Bell 01:07
Great to be on in. Thank you for having me.

Nina Young 01:09
Yeah, super. It’s really good. Looking forward to our conversation. There’s some of the things that we’ve um we’ve already discussed. And uh I think it’s gonna be interesting to a broader, not just quantity surveyors and uh quantity surveying students, but other surveyors. We we do have a lot of people, other surveyors listening, and they’re always interested to hear from other surveyors across adjacent professions. And I think especially this first topic we’re gonna talk about, which is around business development and what your career and how you’ve grown and developed a firm. But I think we’ll start with sort of a background from you. Sort of, I always ask, you know, why a QS, you know, and and sort of a bit a bit of a background to you, really.

Tom Bell 01:50
Why a QS? What what a difficult question. I I obviously know many QSs, and you need many QSs. I don’t don’t think many people, there are a few, but I don’t think there’s many that had to start out their career thinking I want to be a quantosveyor. And I think a straw pole

Tom Bell 02:05
would lead to people falling on it or it emerging as a as as a as a route. Partly I think that’s because of a slight issue our profession has that people don’t really know what surveyors do, or there are so many different types of surveyor that actually, what is a quantosurve and give it, you know, how do you explain that to an eight-year-old or a ten-year-old, whereas an architect designing a building is is is slightly easier. But essentially, yeah, my my background and and my routine into quantum surveying, I wasn’t particularly academic at school. I didn’t really feel like I wanted to go on to university and and and pursue that side of it. And I I thought that I wanted to do something a bit more practical and and potentially go into something that was more trade-based or something construction-related. I didn’t I wasn’t overly successful and didn’t have all of my qualifications at school, so had to take a bit of a step back and and and redo those, which gave me a new set sort of found push. So it so did end up then going and doing A-level. But at the point where I decided I didn’t want to go to university and started looking for more of a vocational sort of career, I thought I was unfortunately told that you were a bit too old now, and it’s 19, and most people do this at 16 and came away a little bit, a little bit disheartened, but was talking with a sort of a uh a job center for young people at that point in time and still old man because obviously they sent me a letter in the post that for a job that was training quantity surveyor, one day a week at university, four days a week learning about it. Didn’t know what a quantity surveyor was, but my dad, and he looked at it on the internet at a point in time and he said, I don’t know, but they they seem to earn good money, so it’s probably worth have having the chat.

Nina Young 03:42
Advice, Dad.

Tom Bell 03:43
Yeah, so and and sure enough, so I thought, right, well, may as well go and do the interview and and and yeah, pass got got the job and and and and went from there really.

Nina Young 03:54
So it’s a it’s a common thing that that I’ve heard this quite a few times across all areas of surveying, but QS as well, and you’re right, it is very hard to explain to a young child, isn’t it?

Tom Bell 04:05
I think the problem with surveying is that you’ve got people have an image in their mind that it it’s the guy with the clipboard or with the the other light out in the field physically surveying something, whereas you know, lawyers and and other professions just I think they do a better way of portraying that sort of base position. So everyone sort of knows what a lawyer is. But actually, once you start looking at that legal profession, a divorce lawyer compared to an acquisition lawyer, contentious versus non-contentious, they’re all very, very different skills and very different people that do. But actually, your perception of the lawyer is is fairly broad, whereas surveying is almost the other way around, uh that it’s very complicated, and you know, what a building surveyor does or what a land surveyor does or an antiquities surveyor compared to a quantospayer, is unique, really, isn’t it? Between you know, in a in a profession that’s all regulated by the same body, passing the same sort of exams and and professional qualificators to get there. Uh and then I think one one step further into that, you know, being a being a being a quantospayer is different whether you’re a professional quantospayer, whether you work for a contractor, whether you sort of specialise in in adjudication or arbitration or something like that. It’s all very it’s all very different. And so trying to explain that.

Nina Young 05:16
It is really difficult, and I think there’s a lot of challenges, and we you know, we do need we do need far more surveyors across the board and all areas of surveying, where we’ve got quite a shortage. With regards to just one just curious, what was it about university that wasn’t for you?

Tom Bell 05:31
Kind of what I think I’ve always been quite hardworking in the sense of wanting to work, you know. Yeah, okay. Partly from a remuneration perspective, i.e., the more that you work, the more money that you have, and partly from the enjoyment of I guess sort of completing those sort of sort of tasks. And so university for time and not earning money, or the percep my perception at that point in time of of of not it didn’t appeal to me. And I guess I didn’t it didn’t really appeal, I guess, in some ways from a personal perspective, and maybe being that little bit older, having taken a bit that little bit of far now. I didn’t have sort of restrictions and so I worked in a pub as example uh because I was already

Tom Bell 06:10
18 and therefore. Yeah, I did. I did that, yeah. Yeah, I didn’t have a time when I had to be home, you know, yeah, okay, we had to shape and tell my parents what it was. But you know, so I didn’t have that feeling of I want to go off and live on my own and go into halls of residence and that sort of thing to gain independence because I already felt quite independent. Not saying that’s why why everybody did it. And I think, you know, one thing that is very good about Savane as as a profession is that balance between being sat in front of a computer or in an office working and then sort of being involved in some level of practicality, looking at things or being out of the office and could it like being in meetings or on sites, etc. And I think that balance really suits myself, but the other side of the universe sort of the perception of being there five days a week and sitting and working, you know, studying, as opposed to actually sort of working. And I do and I do think, you know, I know it’s the the apprenticeship route now, I still personally think that is the the best route to come into the into the profession. Yes, you know, but people that go to university for all all the right regions, but by the time you finish that five or six year course, and don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of ups and downs for myself through that process, and it’s um it’s hard when you’re not earning a lot of money and in your third year and you’re really you know pushing in and and and feel like you’re doing the job and a graduate comes in fresh out of university and they you know they’ve never even stepped foot in the office and they’re getting paid a significant amount of money more than you because they’re because they’re a graduate. But the longer term view, you know, you you it does set you in a lot better stance, you know. Yeah.

Nina Young 07:43
I can really I can really identify with that. I mean, I had I I did the graduate route, but had I no had the opportunity for an apprenticeship, it just didn’t, it wasn’t there. I would definitely have done that route because it suited me better rather than the academ academic route because I was like you, I I had you know the paper rounds, I was earning from so young. Exactly. And you know, quite an entrepreneurial brain, which I I think you have as well. And it’s kind of on the job and earning. And interestingly, what I’m hearing across surveying is that apprenticeships are very much up this year. And I think long term, and we’ll we’ll come on later in the conversation to talk about sort of AI technology, but I think the way things are evolving so fast and change is that the degree route, I think apprenticeship routes are going to be more suited, and it’s also getting on the job, earning, and it’s hard work, but you develop your communication skills and everything straight away. You’re literally thrown in at the deep end. But so I think you know it it resonates with a lot of people, and I certainly encourage more and more firms to go down that route of apprenticeships. I think we need to. So, with regards to the firm and and business development,

Nina Young 08:56
we have we have talked about this. I’m very interested to hear about sort of your views on how you went about growing and developing a firm, business development challenges, but also the best ways to go about it as well.

Tom Bell 09:09
I think it’s a funny one, really, because in terms of business development, the the lots of different ways to do it, I suppose. And there are more um be edited out. I think you need to look, you know, in in terms of where you where where you’ve come from and how you’ve come through your career. And I think the problem that that some people try and have with business development, if they try and go from from zero to 104, their perception is that it’d be great to do business development because you’re out drinking and eating and meeting people, networking, yeah, and networking, and that’s what’s going to generate generate the the work. And to a degree there is an element of that, but the the more fundamentals are for me are relationships. And those relationships aren’t aren’t gorged, you know, now they’re forged 10, 15, 20 years ago. You know, some some of my best clients, we were graduates together, and now and our careers have gone in completely different ways, and then it and then it’s come it’s come back together and you’ve full circle. You’ve you’ve known each other across all that time and and a and the trustee. It’s about making the effort with those relationships and keep and keeping them going. And in in my opinion, it’s it’s not trying to rush and push things. And I think if you rush and push things, then all that ends up happening is you become frustrated because you feel like things aren’t happening fast enough and you’re not trying to push things fast enough. The biggest thing, like I’m not a business development person, and in quantity you don’t have business development people because you think it should be led by sort of semi numbers of staff. But I regularly sort of myself as you know more of like you’re you’re you’re a technical salesperson. So you’re not just going to sell quantum surveying, you’re going to sell the knowledge that you’ve got about it’s not a product, but it’s the it’s the solution to what the what the client needs. So if they’ve got a residential project and it doesn’t work because the numbers don’t stack it, it’s about looking at the efficiency of the building and what what rates you know is included with the mechanic electrical, then why do you think that should be low? And if you go and sit and have that conversation, you can look at that problem and fix that problem for them, then they’re gonna just they they they take that as a huge plus rather than just sort of going, I can sell you a business that’s the same as ten other businesses. That’s not what they’re buying, they’re buying sort of the individual. So I think that’s a big part of it. And there’s a funny, I think there’s a funny part in mentorship. Uh and I’m sure you you must you must have talked about it on the podcast before, but I I have a strange view on mentorship because I think I have been mentored and I think that you know it certainly has happened in my career, but I’ve never gone out and looked for it, if that makes sense. And I think that I almost find when people are then looking for that, or how do I how do I learn from that that that person? It becomes almost a little bit coarse, and and therefore, you know, you sort of striving for something where exactly it’s about being Is it like general, is it like sort of building it’s like building the relationships first before an expectation of this mentoring?

Nina Young 12:17
It’s kind of it because it almost happens mentoring and in many ways. As you build your circle in your network, you come across people and then you develop rel and then it just happens by us, it’s like osmosis, isn’t it? It just happens.

Tom Bell 12:29
And and some of the best advice I had was from a very good, very senior business person who I got to know quite well. And you know, we’d go meet each other regularly, and he’d say, you know, he’d say to them, look, um, we both know why we’re here, you know. We you you we know what the end goal is, but you can’t just sit there and and say, right, what work have you got? What work have I got? How do we you know, because that’s not how life works. And absolutely what you need to take from that sort of meeting is what have I learned from it, what have I taken from it? So you might go meet somebody and get, you know, no business leave, no, nothing else. But if you found out one little thing about a potential project that might be happening, or somebody that’s struggling, or somebody that needs help in a particular sector, or or whatever it might be, that’s worth that’s worth as much as winning a job in some ways because it’s that little bit of information. And then if you can come like anything, if you can compound that and you find out 10 different things on 10 different people across 10 different days, then that’s all information that we can use that inevitably will come to something.

Nina Young 13:28
That’s really good advice to stand a line.

Tom Bell 13:31
And the other thing that we were talking about in the end before was the about I guess trying to be trying to be a little bit selfless with it. So I’m I’m a big advocate of trying to help other people that that in turn will help me. So if if I can get two people together, whether that be an architect, an engineer, a client, whatever, but that person will make the other person’s life better or or fix a problem that they start. I get nothing out of that person from a business perspective. But they both they both come away, you know, in a better position because I was involved. And they remember you. And they remember you. And so that’s it’s reciprocal, isn’t it?

Nina Young 14:06
Yeah. It’s not I mean it’s like that phrase, what goes around comes around. And my my motto, one of my main motto in life is it’s not just what you know, it’s who you know.

Tom Bell 14:14
Absolutely. Yeah. So I think so. I think if you go so the takeaway from it would be is don’t push it too hard. Don’t go out and think you’ve got to sort of sell like you’re selling, you know, used cars and and people who find B you push you with it. Be yourself, first and foremost, be technically good.

Tom Bell 14:30
Because if you’re not technically good, that’s how you, you know, because that’s the other part about it. Winning work is one thing, you then have to deliver it, deliver it consistently, and you’re only ever as good as your last job. And if you don’t do that beyond winning that piece of work, that client will never will never use you again. And in the same vein as what people think that that way, the worst thing that can happen to be in the market’s not go, oh, I wouldn’t use them. They really drop the ball on my job. So it’s not, and that’s not an image thing, that’s a professional thing, that’s about actually then doing the job well and making sure that your team and the people that support you have the skill set to do that as well. But for but for younger people, the best advice would be net is your network, starting your network early, yes, it’s no people, because you know, the people that I interface with now, you know, they’d say I’ve known them for a long time. Or at one point they were a competitor and we were we were sort of clashing heads, you know, fighting for the same flying, and now they’ve moved on and they’re and they are flying songs.

Nina Young 15:24
That’s the that’s it. And also it’s like don’t burn your bridges, isn’t it?

Tom Bell 15:27
You never know where people are going to end up.

Nina Young 15:29
You never know where people are gonna end up. And it’s like also looking at the other side of it with regards to recruitment as well. You know, you recruit somebody, it could be someone that you’ve known, you know, through another relationship, and then you remember that person, and you know, it’s I think I think it compounds as well.

Tom Bell 15:46
You never know who the biggest is.

Nina Young 15:47
Oh no, that’s very true. I think I think my boss, you know, is my cat. Um my cats, but that’s a different story. I want to hear a little bit more about sort of quantum consulting and and what is it you do, sort of Davis.

Tom Bell 16:04
Absolutely. So Quantum is a really interesting firm. So 20 years old this year, which is an it’s an academic in itself. Essentially, it was set up in in London by by four guys that that all worked at Davis Langdon before Acom brought them out. Business grew organically very successfully. 2014 opened the second office in in Vermingen, which is where I joined the some of the guys. We’d all worked together again at Davis Langdon and then ACOM. And then since then we’ve grown the business to around about 140 employees because recently opened an office in Scotland. About 18 months ago, we opened an office in in Dubai, and again we just really work on sort of really strong client relationships, you know, delivery at the heart and we believe that senior involvement in projects i is was paramount, and that doesn’t mean that junior people don’t get involved or don’t uh don’t get the right exposure and experience. We just find that, you know, in in other businesses that we’ve all that I’ve certainly worked at, that you know, it’s more cost-driven in the sense of put the cheeker’s resource on to you know maximise the profit, but then when something goes wrong, the person without the experience, you know, the project tends to go wrong more. And so we find if you pop the right person on with the right level of experience, yeah, those issues don’t tend to manifest in quite the same way. And if we do if we do have a problem, which the you know just construction and the surveyors and and that part of our job, we do the opposite in terms of we, you know, we we increase resource rather than taking it away. Because again, it’s about it’s about fixing that and fix fixing that that problem. But yeah, as as as a business you offer um quantitavan project management and building spain, but we’re we’re predominantly a quantum

Tom Bell 17:45
surveying business. Okay. With a strong aspir um aspiration to you know continue. We want to continue growing the business, but it’s got to be it’s got to be right.

Nina Young 17:55
I mean, it’s not just about you know, bums on seats or how do you get to the level of turnover or how do you get to the level of that’s an interesting yeah, because I have heard this is across different areas of surveying, where some firms they grow too fast and then they get stuck, you know, because cash flow is king, isn’t it? It’s one of the biggest things that hit hit businesses. So how would you say that, you know, because that’s very successful. That’s a very established, you’ve got a very established, successful firm. What do you think? Like obviously some of the things we’ve already talked about, but any other things that would would sort of explain the success? Is it not growing too fast?

Tom Bell 18:33
Is it doing things I mean this is this is gonna sound cliche. It’s it’s it’s the people, you know, as surveyors and surveying a firm, we s we suppel yourselves best of advice. It’s hard to quantify that. It’s not like you’re working in a factory and you’re making your product that’s coming out the other end and you can therefore and monetize that. So, you know, I think uh at board level, initially, you know, we’re really tight. Uh we’re we’re all on the same page, we’re all pulling in the same direction, we get the same shared value, the sense, same shared goals. And that’s really important for the business and for the the future of the business. But then more so, you know, each team is set in the in the right way, and with that sort of you know, partner group and and the people that that sit below them. It it’s about making sure that they’re the right people, first and foremost, you know, from a competency and an ability perspective, and and going back to that point of making sure that we we deliver. And then I suppose the other part about that then is uh we have been very fortunate to secure very prestigious projects and that’s testing that to the hard work and the capability that you’ve got. But also, you know, it’s about serving all of the clients and all of the projects and making sure that you know everybody that that comes and integration business gets the rights that teach you can buy and wants to come back. That’s that’s the biggest vote, isn’t it?

Tom Bell 19:55
That people can like anything in in life, if you if you do something well and it’s good, we’ll go back and do it.

Nina Young 20:01
Absolutely. And I think it yeah, I mean, it is about the people. And I’m probably gonna sound like a broker record on this podcast, but almost every c every conversation I’ve had with surveyors, it comes back to people and com communications, the skills needed to communicate, convey difficult conversations, negotiations, this kind of thing. And I think it’s an area that’s gonna become increasingly important. And that kind of brings us on to the QS role in sort of the age of AI and tech and how things are are evolving and changing quite rapidly. What are your thoughts as to how what you’re seeing and how it’s how it’s evolving and how it might evolve in, say, the next five, ten years?

Tom Bell 20:44
Yeah, I mean, I don’t know about five or ten years, five or six months might be a bit uh I was being generous there. I don’t know. I think I think we’re all you know it’s a brave new world. And I think the the one thing for sure is we you know we need to embrace we need to embrace it. I think if you try and pretend it’s not happening, then you’re going to you’re going to come with stuff. By my own admission, I probably don’t use AI as much as I should do, um, in a strange sort of way. And I think we all you everyone started to use it a bit more like like a search function, you know, rather than using Google, you know, it needs it a different way. Yeah. So I I see a lot of stuff that comes out of it, some good, some bad. I think probably the biggest issue we have with it right now is how it will impact upon more junior people. Yes. And people coming in gyms too. I mean, I mean a a good example. Like how to write a set of minutes. I think it’s very important of how to write a set of minutes and have relied upon minutes that I’ve written and in in in legal positions, in notes of negotiations. And you did say that on this particular date because it’s there, but I only know it’s there because I wrote those minutes and spent that four or five hours doing that. Whereas no, we have AI note takers and and things like that, but but they generate it in a very good way and it’s very efficient. But who then reads it? And you know, people probably only go and look at it when they need to look at it. And is it as reflective as you thought it was at that point in time? I don’t I don’t know. And some of the key skills certainly as a quantum span, you know, the measurement, the quantification, because whilst being that training or apprentice US, there’s some very boring, laborious hours that go into that. But that’s what helped you understand construction. That’s what helped you understand why a wall stands up in the way that it does, or how you know foundations are constructed or whatever, because you spent that time looking at it. Whereas, okay, putting it into AI and it giving you the answer, it’s great and very time efficient. We’re losing the whole set of skill, essentially, in in that. What I do think though, sort of looking at again from a bit more positive outlook from from an industry perspective, is that it’s we talked about people earlier, and it’s a very people focused industry. And it is, you know, what AI won’t be able to do is have that conversation to say, why is that number like that? And I don’t need it to do that, I need it to do this, and what can we do to do that, and how can we move things forward and you know the the general human interaction and the emotion that’s not there with AI. So it’s not gonna lose that part. And I think you know, I’d be very interested to see, you know, if we get a client’s AI and a contractor’s AI and got them to try and negotiate something and they’re trying to do it very factually or to catch each other out. Whereas, you know, the majority of negotiating is a two-way street, isn’t it, where you’re put you’re sort of putting up forward arguments that one person’s either gonna sort of concede on and and normally there’s lots of other factors that sit outside of the actual point that you’re totally discussing that

Tom Bell 23:45
that influence that you know that influence that receiving and ultimately the the agreement. And I don’t think you’re gonna take that away short term, for sure. But how does it how does it you know manifest in in in your term? But I do think the most the most accurate thing I’ve heard about AI is that AI probably isn’t gonna take your job, but someone that knows how to use AI well probably will. And what’s it?

Nina Young 24:07
That’s it, yeah. I think that’s it. I think you know AI is can be incredibly empowering and it can, you know, it is augment, you know, it it it assists, it works alongside, it takes it can take away. And this is this whole question around junior trainees and AI is across all professions at the moment. Everyone’s talking about it. Universities, it’s just it’s a very difficult, and I’ve not heard the things I follow and track, I’ve not heard anyone really come up with what that is gonna look like. I don’t think anyone really knows yet. And you can imagine the challenges coming down the line of it. But with AI taken away, go on.

Tom Bell 24:47
I think we’ve got a long way to go with it as well, in terms of um there’s a lot, there’s a lot of similarities. If you look at it uh enough, you can somebody will send you something go, yeah, that’s that you’ve done that with Lord, haven’t you? Or you’ve done that with code, but you can tell because of just the way that each the agents do things. And they also think that you know, I was talking to somebody the other day, he was saying that they’d got an insert um a scope of services, and the client had put what AI was gonna do, so what they wanted them to do, and that’s like uh you know, basically to sort of compress their thing to say, well, we don’t need you to do these different things because AI is going to do that. And that’s one route that some clients will potentially go down. But you can also see another world where and you see it on LinkedIn and things at the moment where you can sort of filter so that there’s no AI generated content. You can sort of see some clients very much saying, I’ll I’m only going to employ you if there’s no AI involved in this, you know, certainly from an architectural perspective or something that’s more design focused, because actually that’s what you’re losing, is everything becoming very similar, but it’s all looking at the same base position. So I can see there being almost too you know, this person I was talking to, yeah. You might what you might find is that if you’re a hairfielder and you’ve got six or seven different hags and you’re just gonna put it on any site. I mean AI might perfect that, um, and that just works. Because if you’re designing a one-off library in the middle of a major city, then that AI doesn’t work that, and there’s there’s these

Tom Bell 26:10
different sort of facets for how that that looks.

Nina Young 26:12
So I think it’s it’s an in it’s an interesting time, isn’t it? And there’s it’s keeping up with it all, I think, is the hardest challenge. Keeping up and uh having having the time, because I one of the things you know I’m I’m saying a lot at the moment is just start to understand it because even if you’re not using it, clients are, employees are. It’s you know, and I’m seeing a lot of that happening now, and that’s a good example of what you’ve just said about the scope of service. It’s it’s exactly the kind of thing, even if you don’t use it, you need to be aware of and clients’ expectations as well, and how those are gonna shift over time, you know. Because I’ve I’ve already heard about and this is this is gonna you know increase. This is across all professions where, oh, well, you’re using AI. Well, your fees are below then. There’s all that kind of challenge coming. And, you know, moving from it being hourly based, sort of illegal, to be outcome-based. Because that’s really at the end of the day what the client wants. It’s the outcome, it’s the value, what you’re bringing at the end of the day. They don’t care about all the rest, you know.

Tom Bell 27:17
Uh the the one thing to forget with the young people is that there’s not gaps, but just thinking to my kids who are, you know, this guy’s secondary skin, they’re gonna grow up with it. So actually, when they get into the workforce, it will be they won’t know anything different. And I think that’s what it’s uh that’s probably the thing that’s to me is that they will then they will have a different perception on how things happen because of not knowing anything different, a bit like pre-m post-internet, I guess, and pre-M P mail. You know, you can think about there were points in time where you know people didn’t send all-in-jum email and stuff that were all hard copy, and now that’s a thing of thing, thing of the past. And that point in time, no, it’ll never it will never take on. We’re always gonna want the hard copy coin. Never gonna be a time when the client’s not prepared for the box of coins, and now they’re just don’t involve with it.

Nina Young 28:01
And I think the the tension that I’m seeing to start unfold is with regards to students, graduates expecting to use AI in a firm and the firms aren’t using it, and they’ve used it for three years. And I make, you know, I I suppose it’s some recruiters and and graduates, and they’re like, Well, I want an employer that lets me, or my employer won’t let me, and then you’ve got the whole issue of shadow AI, well they’re gonna not gonna stop using it. And I’ve heard that actually they they are using it, you know, and the firm doesn’t want to, and so it’s like can’t they’re playing catch-up with a profession that’s you know, understandably slower to adapt. And then with the graduates, don’t make choices and things like that.

Tom Bell 28:41
But I mean, you know, you can’t necessarily do it as well. So there’s there’s a risk.

Nina Young 28:47
There’s a lot of risk. So one of the things that when we spoke before was I’d be interested to explore, and then we’ll we’ll that will then lead on to talking about your role at the RICS on the professional group panel, is to do with the plaque. Tell me about the the chair, is it a chair’s plaque at the RICS HQ?

Tom Bell 29:08
Yeah, so so when I was the West Midland leading board for the RICS, the RICS move in Birmingham, they already moved moved off Waterloo Street to 55 Cornwall Road. And it’s a great, it’s a great move. They’re relocated from Coventry and it’s their sort of headquarters. And for those that don’t know, both the London RICS building and 55 Comwell Road both have member spaces, but free to use for RICS members. I’m great work working in slides really fantastic, but they’re great spaces, so please, please do go and use me if you get a chance. But in Waterloo Street, there’s just my recollection was this beautiful mahogany black with gold lettering that that had all of the previous or past uh regional board chairs going back to 18 something. It was a lovely piece of history. So I was I was quite keen to understand where this was and and and wanted it to have a home in in the new new space. So after a lot of searching, nothing had been thrown away, which is which is great, but it was in storage somewhere in Parliament Square. And when they showed me the photos, in fact, it wasn’t they weren’t quite as nice as I remembered them, and one was portrait, one was glandscape. And it also turned out that the that the gold lettering that they used to write the names on was really expensive and you know, maybe special.

Nina Young 30:28
Yeah. I can imagine, yeah.

Tom Bell 30:31
Gold leaf. So the RSS were great in terms of you know the fact that we’d had this discussion, this debate. They sort of acknowledged that you know this piece of history that shouldn’t just be forgotten. So we so we got that reimagined, all the names were taken and on the wall in um cobra member space, not just by the uh the tea point, it was a big wall with uh uh don’t want the shake, it’s hexagons, I think, name with all the names of all the fast chairs and then plenty of space, plenty of space for the people that come next to you through the wall and all around.

Nina Young 31:03
Excellent. That was yeah, I think totally it should it shouldn’t be stored in a dusty cupboard, should it? No. Something like that.

Tom Bell 31:10
Especially when you’re like you uh the other thing I think see if we can see but see some of the names of people there that then gone to government council or become president, and so you know it’s it’s people that are trying to get involved with the RICS, which I’m sure we’ll come on to shortly, you know, local professional groups is a great place to start. It’s a good that’s a good way to then lead into the regional board, and then from regional board, you know, that’s it’s a really good platform to step into the lot of other roles within the RICS

Tom Bell 31:40
at that form.

Nina Young 31:41
Yeah, I’m interested to hear and understand, especially for people maybe thinking about it, and also there’ll be there’ll be students that maybe don’t know much about it, the professional group panels, and also obviously your role as chair of the the construction PGP.

Tom Bell 31:56
Yeah, so uh one thing with the RRCS, um, you know, it get it gets a bad rap, and you know, a lot uh yeah, I think a lot of people have said, you hear a lot of people say a lot of spayers saying, oh, I’ve got my letters, but yeah, what else, what else does it with me? And I think my my personal experience with the RRCS has always been the more that you put into it, the more personally I’ve I’ve got out of it. And I don’t mean that from sort of a business development or or or part of it. You know, it’s not it’s not about that for me. It’s more about you know it’s a good network. You you meet a lot of interesting people, both RRCS staff and other surveyors in in them. And I suppose it’s about trying, you know, the big thing that we’re trying to do, or the big thing that the RRCS is trying to do, is get the insights and the understanding of local members. What do they want, what are their challenges, what’s you know, what keeps them up at night. Because they don’t have access to that sort of internet. And it’s such a big sort of machine in anymore. But it’s it’s hard to find find that out. So I think yeah, as I say, the the the local professional groups which you know are completely uh it’s all completely voluntary, but you know, it’s not necessarily an elected position. Anyone can join a local local group.

Nina Young 33:07
Okay.

Tom Bell 33:08
Regional board is is an elected position. But you put forward your you know, you pop forward a CV and and um I see so you start at the sort of the sort of local and then I think it involves any any any member can apply for any position that’s okay uh available. Yeah. But of course there’s a the there’s a criteria that you’re being assessed against. And by default, ha if you’re able to demonstrate that you’ve done other things that are similar, they don’t necessarily have to be with the RICS. That m that makes your position probably in that interview process stronger than some of the other people that you might be up against. Yeah. And obviously, if you’ve done through the RSCS, you’ll understand how the RCS works and some of the governance things and the like, which uh which again can can help you with your sort of endeavours.

Nina Young 33:57
Moving on to the sorry, I was gonna ask um what’s kind of the time commitment? Obviously, it’s it’s voluntary for like PGP. What what kind of things do you get involved with?

Tom Bell 34:07
Do you have meetings? Um the minimum time, the minimum time commitment to sort of most performal positions reading the board, and I think they meet at least four times a year, it might be six times a year. So there’s sort of an hour and a half to a two-hour meeting. Um but the reality is that if the board is working properly, the majority of work should really be done outside of the board, and then the board is where you go back and talk about what what what you’re doing. So the example of when I when I was uh chairing it, we just we we came up with like three three set things that you as a board we wanted to focus on, which was kind of anything like engagement with the the local market and group

Tom Bell 34:46
and so we split the board into groups, and the groups went off and focused on that, and then we maybe put them on a bent, or we put on some CPD, or we responded to whatever it was that the RSF wanted to do at that point in time. But we did that sort of separately and then came back to the board caught to say what’s going on, what support we needed from other people, etc. etc. So but each board is is you know nationally, it’s slightly they all have the same aims with who but they are depending on who the chair is, and what what an image should be, they’re all they’re all slightly but I’m a big advocate of you know get getting involved. The other the other one, the more junior people in a career is Matrix. There’s a huge um gap between you know lots of people join Matrix and do lots of stuff in Matrix and then they don’t go on to you know they sort of get chartered. I suppose it’s a natural thing, they get chartered, they get busy at work, and therefore something has to be up and they drop they drop the ROCS part of it, which which is understandable, but if people can make the time and try and stay involved, the more scene you get, I guess the more and again it links back to the relationship building and the networks and um yeah, yeah. And and also cross, you know, cross cross disdisciplinary, you know, as it were maybe colleagues of mine on the Syria B. You know, you talk to R you talk to architects that are doing a similar thing with the RRDA, and just back to that. That you know, when you’re having those sort of conversations and then you find out what the RDA condition is on something, you know, or S A B and you take that back to the RCS, and nobody didn’t know that, and then it just sort of, you know, it it all helped.

Nina Young 36:17
I think there was something that we we touched upon earlier was that uh you’ll be looking for new members for the PGP construction.

Tom Bell 36:24
Yes, correct? So maybe if we talk about the PG the PGP, so the professional group panels are a very interesting part of the the sort of hierarchy of the artists to sit just below given patch, and essentially are a a route into the membership to to look at how the RSS is is given basically and we look at sort of qualification process, the APC process, how that’s working, what we’re going to change, new new pathways, new uh routes into the profession, you

Tom Bell 36:55
know, things like the construction guidance, what was the black book, you know, how that how that’s dealt with. So there’s lots of different work screens that are going on that that we have been asked to look at. The the PGPs that are sits in the thing all feed into the the KPC, which is the knowledge and practice committee. So by being chair and each of the chairs emphasis on the knowledge and practice committee. I think and we therefore have to then sign up on these um differ different um proposals, as it were, before they go to the consultation or before they’re then.

Nina Young 37:25
So you’re really at the forefront as well, aren’t you, of change?

Tom Bell 37:28
Yeah, absolutely. So it’s and as a PGP member, it can it really comes back to that it it’s responded to things like that. So we get we get information that we want people to look at and give a view on and opinion on, and you know, policies that we need to be, you know, updated or not the best of the case maybe. And then the other part that we’re looking for in PGP members are um not people with like huge networks, but people that are in in the industry talking to people to get those insights. That’s what insights, isn’t it?

Nina Young 38:01
Because you want everyone’s yeah, everyone’s different, and everyone can bring in their own experiences and insights from either a local or you know, regional or whatever level. And I think it’s that that value is is also I can see meeting with your peers, develop the relationships, but also sharing and and discussing things coming down the line, challenges, changes. And I I can see the value in being involved in that because it kind of puts you at the forefront of things. Absolutely. A little bit of a little bit of foresight and things involved there as well. And and also the opportunity to, I would imagine, to share challenges and things. And you know, discussing that with fellow professionals.

Tom Bell 38:45
Absolutely.

Nina Young 38:46
I can see the value. Shaping it, inputting into it, yeah, feeding feeding back.

Tom Bell 39:03
As I say, we have got some positions, and so we are about to start a recruitment process. So by the time this this is um that will be there and we can share the data.

Nina Young 39:12
Great. Well, there’s any links and things as as always, we’ll we’ll include links to anything for the show notes, you know, to quantum and and yourself as well, if you want to be shared on LinkedIn. Not everybody does. I’m not gonna say you’re suddenly gonna be bombarded, Tom. So moving on to one of the areas I’d like to touch on is your role with QSI, QSI, UK and Ireland. Obviously, we’ve had conversations about QSI, but I’m I’m very

Nina Young 39:40
keen for people to to get an understanding of what QSI is and sort of what your your plans are and uh in the future.

Tom Bell 39:48
So QSI is really really exciting for me. Only because I think you know it it’s fairly new to myself as well. I think they’ve done an extraordinary amount in in a very short period of time. So QSI, for those that aren’t aware, it stands for Contus Spain International. They are a professional body that solely represent conspains. They’re not one to sort of be obviously I’m a very huge advocate for the RICS, so I don’t see them as competitors to want it to see them complementing each other for the purpose of this part of the discussion. RICS is trying to do lots of different things for lots of different surveying backgrounds. So USI is looking just to focus on on quantaspayers and the interests of quantospayers. I think they’re about 20 years old and you know have grown steadily. But in more recent years, there there is a look to how we can increase the membership and what the membership the membership want, and how can we fetch represent quantospayers operating both in the UK and across the world. And also probably it’s probably it it’s hopefully be a home for people that don’t feel like they fit maybe with the ROCS. But you know, so let’s say you’re a contractor’s QS, it’s never gone through that process, and you don’t really align with it and can’t see why you’d sit and do APC. Equally, CIOB, you don’t feel representative as a quantum spare because it’s more construction related. It’s hopefully a home for people like that that can come in, keep their keep their knowledge going, interface with other people, learn uh and sort of keep keep developing their career outside of one of the sort of the other more established. I think the thing that I’ve noticed in the time that I’ve been there and and thinking that I’m trying to sort of promote and help QSI is that to to date field more educationally biased and it’s missing some industry, industry partners. Obviously, you know, the the with a lot of sole practitioners, a lot of sole traders and uh SMEs like like my business is out there, but the vast majority of you know don’t know the stats, but I would hazard the guess that 75 80% of USs is employed by you know eight percent of big firms. So actually, if we can get some if we can get some of those big firms involved and some industry recognition behind USI, I think that will go a long way to try and help promoting it and then also trying to find, similarly with with contracting firms, the main contractors, and hopefully that those relationships and links will be beneficial to the next phase of USR. The other thing that that it’s missing, uh in my opinion, it’s missing at the moment is it’s performing very well globally. I’ve got Paul Hampton, who’s the president, very well connected and he’s he’s you know speaking in lots of different countries and lots of specific affiliations with other you know surveying type organisations. But in the UK, I feel it’s missing that sort of regional regional growth. So it was recently set for Westmorland’s

Tom Bell 42:50
regional branch, uh in the process of setting up a branch in London as well. Right. Then a view of sort of northwest, southwest, perhaps Scotland. Uh and and in time, the hope will be that the you know the people that take on the chair roles of those regional positions will ultimately become part of the UK and Ireland Board, and therefore the UK and Ireland Board who represented regionally sort of understand what the pressures are in different parts of the country, and then QSI can obviously look at how we can best support people and whether we’ve got shared goals, different goals, you know, shared issues.

Nina Young 43:26
I think I think Yeah, I think that’s gonna become one of the things I’m expecting down the line, and and um in part due to AI and and things that are evolving, is that in-person events are gonna be so important long term. And like you say, you can’t be the local regional groups because, like you say, certain regions have certain challenges. They’re different. You know, some live in in uh Newcastle is very different from London, but also there’s also similarities and and things. And I was gonna ask about events. So it’s it’s I would imagine. As part of that, you will have some in-person events down the line with your local groups.

Tom Bell 44:06
Yeah, I mean I mean QSI they uh currently they do the first person club which is a CPD related uh Yeah, I’m gonna be speaking on one of those on AI, funny enough. Yeah. And and so yeah, the it’s very, very new with the regions and and you know, like anything, the bit that we need to get right in this is is the support. Because you know, it’s fine to get a chair and get something that’s enthusiastic. But if we don’t get a room of at least five to ten board vendors or you know interested partners, what one person can’t can’t do it all. But if you can get those people around the table, then yeah, you can get you can get in a paper table and pop your vents on and do what we’ve wanted to do.

Nina Young 44:48
I think yeah, I think it it’s it’s it makes also makes sense to me. I think the way things are evolving across the profession, one of the things I hear just being at a recent RSCS Matrix event in Bristol, which was which was really popular, but the conversations and things and everyone, you can tell it’s like the in-person events, you just can’t beat it for relationship

Nina Young 45:11
building when it’s all part of the network. I mean, yeah, of course it’s convenient, you know, online teams and that, but it’s just not the same as regional events where you’re meeting people and sharing your own own stories, business challenges, etc. So we’re coming towards the end of our conversation, Tom. Is there anything else that you’d like to share? I mean, I could ask the question, why be a QS? Why why is it a good could throw that one at you?

Tom Bell 45:35
I think from yeah, I think the the um the words that there’s no barrier to to entering, but it’s not I think a lot of people have got a perception that being a being a QS is quite like being an accountant, and you know, there’s a lot of spreadsheets and there’s a lot of numbers and there’s a lot of maps, and yes, there is there is an element of everything there being being through. Um some of the best QSs I’ve ever met have been really analytical and love a spreadsheet and love all the data. And three of the best QS’s uh you know aren’t into that side at all. So I think it’s you know it’s a very accessible career. I mean, for myself personally, it’s been great. You know, I’ve I’ve travelled around the world and worked in all sorts of many places. Um you know, wouldn’t have had the opportunity to sort of work at a great business like quantum and often you know give them part of the ownership structure of that that business. And I obviously happy with that. You know, many, many happy USs that are sat in, you know, other businesses doing doing different things. I think you know, we we haven’t really touched on sectors, but you know, working in different sectors can be very different. Working in the residential, you know, house building sector is very, very different than working lot of work. Yes, it’s I think it’s I think it’s it’s broad, but it it’s uh it’s a it’s uh an easy job to sort of get into and and have a really enjoyable career. And if you in bet as I say, I think take away from this myself, is if you invest yourself into it with it with the RSES, so the QSI, you you’ll you’ll always find that there’s a community there of people that want to engage and all want to do the same thing. And knowing lots of people that have been in this for quite a while, that that’s a that’s a consensus that you know goes back to sort of the 50s, sixties, seventies, eighties, and whilst we’re now in a new a new world and a different era, I can’t see why that would be any different than the next one.

Nina Young 47:29
No, I can’t. I think it always comes back to the people at the end of the day. Yeah. Well uh this has been a really good conversation, Tom. We’ve covered a lot, a lot of different things, haven’t we? Yeah, from the chairs plaque to business development. Yeah, covered a lot. So as I’ve said before, obviously you’re gonna be recruiting for the PGP construction role uh for members, sorry, the next few weeks. So we’ll make sure there’s links to that. And there’ll be links to LinkedIn and Quantum so they won want to get in touch and also QSI as well. I think it’s important. I think this sounds sounds great, and obviously have conversations with yourself around QSI. And I think your plans to do that, I think, like you say, it’s not about it’s not about competing with the RSCS. The RSCS has a has a has a remit, has a certain remit and role. And I think anything to me that brings together surveyors,

Nina Young 48:21
especially on a on a regional and national level, is a is a is a big thing. It’s it’s really important. And I think there are pockets of this that happens across different areas. So this is obviously quantum surveying. And it’s good to see more and more of it come along. So I’ve I’d be glad to see it evolve and and grow. And we’ll probably have a conversation again in a year and see see how it’s all evolving at your end. Yeah, indeed. Well, I’m sure it’s keeping you all busy. Yeah. Keeping you uh, yeah, there’s a lot, there’s a lot you’re doing there, Tom.

Tom Bell 48:49
Fine.

Nina Young 48:50
But lovely. Thanks very much today. I really uh enjoyed our call.

Tom Bell 48:54
Thank you, Ben.

Nina Young 48:55
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